Ye Religion Thread

[DaHanG]

it's intellectually satisfying to say there was an all powerful being that was around for an eternity (and does not require an explanation) before the universe was created? that seems more like a way to simply avoid the problem at hand. as i've said, the entity of god himself IS the most improbable being conceivable. name one single entity less improbable than god

i think the human race is on the right track trying to understand everything they can.  i'm not against this at all - i'm all for it.  you have determined god IS the most improbable being conceivable.  it's easy to conceive of something more complicated than god.  what if something created god himself, and so on.  there are plenty of people who use reasoning to form their belief in god.  do you think these people think god is improbable, and yet still believe in god?  science and cosmology cannot say how probable god is - at least not yet.  practically no one who believes in god is trying to avoid problems, or trying to fill in the gaps in science with god.  god created all things, so it's inherent he's all powerful (in my opinion), i think this means many questions about god are incomprehensible.

once again, we must distinguish from the probability that the universe occurred on a purely natural level, and the probability that the god, entity itself, exists. there is no single entity more complicated than god, and it

[reaper]

once again, we must distinguish from the probability that the universe occurred on a purely natural level, and the probability that the god, entity itself, exists.

you have some sort of equation that produces results? 

my point was: but it

[DaHanG]

once again, we must distinguish from the probability that the universe occurred on a purely natural level, and the probability that the god, entity itself, exists.

you have some sort of equation that produces results?

based on our probabilities formulated on matter within the universe forming the way it did, just imagine the probabilities to have a highly complex intelligence (that isn't even matter) being formulated.

my point was: but it

[reaper]

once again, we must distinguish from the probability that the universe occurred on a purely natural level, and the probability that the god, entity itself, exists.

you have some sort of equation that produces results?

based on our probabilities formulated on matter within the universe forming the way it did, just imagine the probabilities to have a highly complex intelligence (that isn't even matter) being formulated.

i don't think that's an apples to apples comparison.  we don't know enough about the "imaginary" complex intelligence.  so god should not exists because he is complicated? even though you don't have another explanation, your just saying stuff is always there - which doesn't make sense if you don't believe in accidents.  i think god exists because god is why things are the way they are.

i'm ok with that, i believe it supports an argument for a god - science doesn't make god unlikely, and god resolves accidents of magnificent proportions (what is expected is irrelevant)

i don't know why you would say definitively what science does and does not do in regard to the question of god. especially when nobel peace prize winning physicists and evolutionary biologists (some among the most intellectual in the world) have a completely different opinion on a scientific basis. god resolves anything by definition (a non-answer).

i can have my own ideas, there are plenty of accomplished people in science who agree with me.  as i said before, i go to work, no one believes in god - none of this is relevant.  whether god is a no-answer by definition doesn't mean much in regards to what i was saying.  you can think what you want about how science and god work together/apart; however it's certainly open to interpretation.

but tell me, why would i want a one-way ticket to hell? surely the worst sin in christianity is the denial of the holy spirit, and i have done this while acknowledging i desperately want religion to be true. how is my atheism wishful thinking? i have a problem with eternal happiness after life and i want eternal suffering?

i'm not a christian, personally i think god is good, and maybe something like jesus

how so? please address this:

if god is all powerful and all good, why is there evil? "he gave us free will" is a typical response (which is a pretty horrific thing to do when considering what he knows happens because of it - but lets leave that problem aside), but there's plenty of evil being done by hurricances / tornados / earthquakes / disease / etc (the list goes on). a response to that may be "god designed these evil happenings for humans to overcome them and bring the best of them". however, if i were to pick on some 4 year old girl and intentionally poison her drink which leads to her death (the same way she might catch some fatal virus that god can clearly prevent) for her family to become stronger, i would be dismissed as one wicked person. morality is morality, no matter who or what is responsible. if this is the way god operates, i have no respect for him. if there was a god, i don't think he would operate like this.

perfect is a balacing act.

...english?

many people believe in god, because of the way things are - things are perfect etc.  if things were perfect anyone would think... surely there has to be a god.  people have a big problems with accidents, they are not logical, and people think god is the only thing that could make this happen, and so on.

you seem to be saying, the world isn't perfect, so god doesn't exists/isn't all powerful.   i think perfect is a balance,  like work and play, so it would be impossible to determine what a perfect world would be like.

[DaHanG]

once again, we must distinguish from the probability that the universe occurred on a purely natural level, and the probability that the god, entity itself, exists.

you have some sort of equation that produces results?

based on our probabilities formulated on matter within the universe forming the way it did, just imagine the probabilities to have a highly complex intelligence (that isn't even matter) being formulated.

i don't think that's an apples to apples comparison.  we don't know enough about the "imaginary" complex intelligence.  so god should not exists because he is complicated? even though you don't have another explanation, your just saying stuff is always there - which doesn't make sense if you don't believe in accidents.  i think god exists because god is why things are the way they are.

Like I said, if you have a problem with matter never having a beginning, just imagine how difficult it is to accept that the most powerful being imaginable never had a beginning. It

[metaL]

there is no such thing as a perfect world.

This is man's world, not God's.  We have free will.

[Whirlingdervish]

but how far does that so-called "free-will" extend?
can we decide as a species that we don't want god around anymore?
will he abide by our decision because he gave us the choice to do what we please?

How free is it, when we can choose every path in life except for the one where god doesn't interfere with our universe?

If it is truly free-will, then we would have the choice to change the universe however we saw fit to whatever end we decided upon. This would make the "revelation" a possible outcome, instead of "the definitive end of time". How true can "all" of the bible be if the conclusion is made uncertain by earlier "truths"?

[metaL]

lmao.

[DaHanG]

there is no such thing as a perfect world.

This is man's world, not God's.  We have free will.

Human free will does not apply to the problem of natural evil though.

[metaL]

LOL

[DaHanG]

what's your objection?

 

[quadz]

there is no such thing as a perfect world.

This is man's world, not God's.

[DaHanG]

 

[reaper]

What about all the little kids God decided to "bless" with terminal cancer?

[[BTF]DeathStalker]

but how far does that so-called "free-will" extend?
can we decide as a species that we don't want god around anymore?
will he abide by our decision because he gave us the choice to do what we please?

Of course. Haven't you noticed, we've already done a great deal of that. We told God we didn't want him messing around our schools anymore, so he stepped aside. "Hmmm, gee wiz Wally, why does Timmy have that AK47 and a strange look in his eye ???"
Oh, and while we we're at it, we also told God to get his nose out of our goverments business. We do have seperation of church and state ya know. So he stepped aside there to, and took his vail of protection with him. "Look, it's a Bird, it's a PLane, no it's Super Osama !!!!"
Seperation of church and state was meant to keep goverment from being run by a church and churches from being run by the goverment. But hell, we've made sure to take it to such extremes you can't even be caught with a small nativity scene on a court house square without 30 lashes.

If it is truly free-will, then we would have the choice to change the universe however we saw fit to whatever end we decided upon.

Absolutely!!! Why not.
Can't believe you haven't noticed we're already doing that to. We decided long ago to get rid of all the stupid wildlife God gave us, we don't need so many animals anyway. We've cut out there environment, oiled up the water, polluted the air, caused global warming to speed up melting the polar ice cap.
I know, I know, you said "Universe", but the universe is a big place, we've gota start somewhere, first order of business is crapping out the earth. We'll reach for the stars later.

there is no such thing as a perfect world.

This is man's world, not God's. We have free will.

Got that right. Amen. God made it for us. It's ours. How else do you think it could get screwed up so bad.

What about all the little kids God decided to "bless" with terminal cancer?