Ye Religion Thread

[[BTF]DeathStalker]

Well you can't have good with out bad, other wize you wouldn't know what good is.
If we lived in a perfect world, why live at all. There would be no point in going to heaven if everything here is already perfect.
I can't figure out why that's so hard to understand.

Yes God allows things to progress on it's own, but will intervine when asked if it's his will.
We don't always know his plan. Our suffering at times can sometimes be to greater benifit us, to teach us something, or mabey to benifit someone else.

[DaHanG]

Well you can't have good with out bad, other wize you wouldn't know what good is.
If we lived in a perfect world, why live at all. There would be no point in going to heaven if everything here is already perfect.
I can't figure out why that's so hard to understand.

Yes God allows things to progress on it's own, but will intervine when asked if it's his will.
We don't always know his plan. Our suffering at times can sometimes be to greater benifit us, to teach us something, or mabey to benifit someone else.

I'm not talking about hardships like dropping your lollypop on the floor. Events outside the free will of humans like a tsunami that kills 150,000+ humans is a little excessive in my eye. Killing someone's entire family and destroying everything they have to "toughen them up" is where I draw the line. We can know what's good and bad within the domain of human free will (plenty of evil to 'round, no?) without having to invent the virus/disease/hurricane/etc. If i were to kill one of your loved ones to toughen you up, you would think I was one of the sickest humans on earth. Meanwhile, if we just say god did it (or allowed it) then it can't be bad, right?

[deft]

very good point metal, never thought of that..perhaps it has something to do with gods existence being a concept..hrm. I will have to ponder this and come back to the quake 2 forums.

REGARDS,

An Enlightened Deft

[quadz]

i just stated that he is NOT actively involved. my sole belief is that there was an outside entity facilitating the creation of the universe and what may lie beyond.. but you can have fun misinterpreting my posts in the meantime, i dont mind. lol and also, diseases and natural disasters are not evil. you guys are seriously lost.

Clearly you subscribe to your own special metal(tm) brand Theory of How It All Works, which is great. But don't be surprised if we're "lost" and wanting to ask for clarification when the full details of your private theory aren't obvious from the outside.

For instance, you've stated that an outside entity is NOT actively involved now, but you've also said this entity WAS involved at some point because the Big Bang and evolution are not sufficient to explain how we ended up where we are.

[metaL]

i would think that someone is lost if they believe diseases or tsunami's are true evil, which is what i stated before.  and no, i do not believe there is someone constantly governing the actions of nature and the organisms of the world around us (free will argument).  However, i do not feel that the universe was a result of a lucky poker hand.  i know that is very vague, but hey, that's why i have a tendency to stand my ground.. after all, i am not claiming that i know everything about God, or even if such an entity really exists. it is just my strong belief that there was an outside force which aided the creation of the incredibly complex world in which we live.

[[BTF]DeathStalker]

Well you can't have good with out bad, other wize you wouldn't know what good is.
If we lived in a perfect world, why live at all. There would be no point in going to heaven if everything here is already perfect.
I can't figure out why that's so hard to understand.

Yes God allows things to progress on it's own, but will intervine when asked if it's his will.
We don't always know his plan. Our suffering at times can sometimes be to greater benifit us, to teach us something, or mabey to benifit someone else.

I'm not talking about hardships like dropping your lollypop on the floor. Events outside the free will of humans like a tsunami that kills 150,000+ humans is a little excessive in my eye. Killing someone's entire family and destroying everything they have to "toughen them up" is where I draw the line. We can know what's good and bad within the domain of human free will (plenty of evil to 'round, no?) without having to invent the virus/disease/hurricane/etc. If i were to kill one of your loved ones to toughen you up, you would think I was one of the sickest humans on earth. Meanwhile, if we just say god did it (or allowed it) then it can't be bad, right?

Completely out of context.
But just for the sake of argument, concerning the latest tsunami, the entire WORLD rose up, took notice, formed a world wide relief effort, AND learned more from that one on what to do and how to better warn and protect there coast. Even something this tragic spawned something else even more beneficial to ALL of mankind.
If no one got killed in a volcano, how would you know to NOT live under one???
If one just looks for it, they can see the positive derived from any negative.
Take WWII for instance. Look how tragic it was, how many innocent people died and suffered in that. But would we be living in the world we live in today if it hadn't happened?

[reaper]

if i were to create a world, i'd have to create one like this, because i wouldn't be able to think of a better world.  that's my take on things anyway, and i understand evil plenty, i live life just like everyone else.

[DaHanG]

i would think that someone is lost if they believe diseases or tsunami's are true evil, which is what i stated before.

nobody on this thread said that.

Well you can't have good with out bad, other wize you wouldn't know what good is.
If we lived in a perfect world, why live at all. There would be no point in going to heaven if everything here is already perfect.
I can't figure out why that's so hard to understand.

Yes God allows things to progress on it's own, but will intervine when asked if it's his will.
We don't always know his plan. Our suffering at times can sometimes be to greater benifit us, to teach us something, or mabey to benifit someone else.

I'm not talking about hardships like dropping your lollypop on the floor. Events outside the free will of humans like a tsunami that kills 150,000+ humans is a little excessive in my eye. Killing someone's entire family and destroying everything they have to "toughen them up" is where I draw the line. We can know what's good and bad within the domain of human free will (plenty of evil to 'round, no?) without having to invent the virus/disease/hurricane/etc. If i were to kill one of your loved ones to toughen you up, you would think I was one of the sickest humans on earth. Meanwhile, if we just say god did it (or allowed it) then it can't be bad, right?

Completely out of context

Tell me how so? What specifically?

But just for the sake of argument, concerning the latest tsunami, the entire WORLD rose up, took notice, formed a world wide relief effort, AND learned more from that one on what to do and how to better warn and protect there coast. Even something this tragic spawned something else even more beneficial to ALL of mankind.

So then every tragedy's positive effects outweigh their negatives? Why can't we use this effort of helping others without requiring 150,000+ people to die first?

If no one got killed in a volcano, how would you know to NOT live under one???

How about god never inventing them in the first place? That was my entire point.

If one just looks for it, they can see the positive derived from any negative.
Take WWII for instance. Look how tragic it was, how many innocent people died and suffered in that. But would we be living in the world we live in today if it hadn't happened?

So then you want another world war in order to have the benefits of learning from our mistakes in the future? How about never even having to deal with such a terrible matter in the first place?

[reaper]

So then every tragedy's positive effects outweigh their negatives? Why can't we use this effort of helping others without requiring 150,000+ people to die first?

so god is supposed to intervene, and we are supposed to know he's interviening.  maybe oceans governing themselves are part of a perfect world.

[DaHanG]

if i were to create a world, i'd have to create one like this, because i wouldn't be able to think of a better world.  that's my take on things anyway, and i understand evil plenty, i live life just like everyone else.

I create a world without natural disasters, fresh water oceans, non-pollutive oil, crops capable of being grown in any climate so countries aren't suffering unnecessarily, and much more. I wouldn't let such easily avoidable issues bring down my beloved creation.

[DaHanG]

So then every tragedy's positive effects outweigh their negatives? Why can't we use this effort of helping others without requiring 150,000+ people to die first?

so god is supposed to intervene, and we are supposed to know he's interviening.  maybe oceans governing themselves are part of a perfect world.

...no? Once again, the invention of tsunamis by god should have been avoided in the first place.

[reaper]

...no? Once again, the invention of tsunamis by god should have been avoided in the first place.

what would human kind be without suffering - they would be weak. so to create the perfect image of mankind, humans need challenges, it's all of mankind your dealing with, not one person's life.

[DaHanG]

...no? Once again, the invention of tsunamis by god should have been avoided in the first place.

what would human kind be without suffering - they would be weak. so to create the perfect image of mankind, humans need challenges, it's all of mankind your dealing with, not one person's life.  the ideal solution for perfection isn't all cherries, it's a balancing act.  humans need to be able to make their own choices, and things aren't supposed to always go there way

As i proposed, doesn't human free will cover enough ground for potential suffering?

[quadz]

what would human kind be without suffering - they would be weak. so to create the perfect image of mankind, humans need challenges, it's all of mankind your dealing with, not one person's life.

[reaper]

As i proposed, doesn't human free will cover enough ground for potential suffering?

if crops grew perfect, and there were no floods, wouldn't that change how much suffering humans imposed on themselves?

Why?  If God already is capable of conceiving of this "perfect image of mankind", then surely God could have just designed our DNA so that we came out perfect in the first place.

No?

looks like god wants us to create good things ourselves