Ye Religion Thread

[QuakeDuke]

The point is, we can explain how thunder occurs without requiring God's involvement, just by the physics involved.  It's no different with the formation of planets.

How do you know for sure that all the things in place to make it happen wasn't his doing. Looks like the formation of planets takes a great deal of organized processes. Not just "random" happenings.

Who is arguing that it is a random process?  It's like planets orbiting a star, and stars orbiting the center of a galaxy... Does God have to be involved at every moment, just so the Earth doesn't fly out of orbit from the sun?  Sure we don't know that god has to be helping the Earth stay in orbit at every moment, but really, unless God is a fan of busy-work why bother having it work that way?

But should we rule out God's involvement (which seems to be the default response) just because we can apparently explain just by the physics involved how something happens apparently without requiring God's involvement (or at least his apparent non-involvement based on and according to our perception levels)?

On the subject of busy-work (ack! I even hate the thought of that - probably 'cause I'm a laazzzyy person ) I would rather think it would be one of the givens in the whole concept of God would he would be a fan of busy-work - thus the continual attempts by mankind to "appease" him? Or, perhaps he's one of those who set things in motion, steps back and says "Whew! another day, another dollar. Now, let's see how long it takes for them to figure out how it works and if they're smart enough to figure out how it keeps going before I have to  stop back by here sometime during the next millennium and give it another spin.....

QD

[QuakeDuke]

well to answer both of your questions:

the "fire" is actually just heat which is caused by immense pressure that was caused by gravity, which in turn was caused by the huge mass of the earth affecting the surrounding space.

if you dug a hole in arkansas and somehow found a way to safely go straight through the core, which is pressurized molten metal, you'd end up coming out the other side somewhere in the vicinity of the Indian subcontinent... possibly under the Indian Ocean. (depends on the angle you dig... if it's a shallow enough angle, you could come out in california after digging in a straight line under the earth's curved surface)


any more questions Mr. Duke?
 

No. My tongue and my cheek are getting kinda tired....

QD

[quadz]

But should we rule out God's involvement (which seems to be the default response) just because we can apparently explain just by the physics involved how something happens apparently without requiring God's involvement (or at least his apparent non-involvement based on and according to our perception levels)?

Well the cool thing about this Universe, whether it was designed by God, or whether the Universe itself emerged the concept of God through monkey-brain evolution or whatever: (As an aside: "Who created the Universe?" and "Who created God?" seem to me fundamentally the same question.)

[reaper]

if god created the universe, the creation of planents (as popular science shows) would be wrong and/or incomplete.

[quadz]

Heh, well, you're straining the limits of my infinitesimal knowledge of cosmology and astrophysics, but...

Don't let'm get to ya Quadz. If he'd read the thread, he'd a seen the humor in our exchange

Cool, I'm glad for that; as I was indeed laughing as I started writing that reply.

[quadz]

if god created the universe, the creation of planents (as popular science shows) would be wrong and/or incomplete.

Do you have a link to the popular science article?  From what you've said, I don't understand what that means.

If sounds like you're saying:

  IF god created the Universe,
  THEN creation of planets would be wrong

Which I can't make heads or tails of.

[[BTF]DeathStalker]

Why are we all going round and round about how the planets are made and being made anyhow ???
All you have to do is pick up a copy of Hitchhikers Guide to the Galaxy. They explaned everything.
Sheeez, Wake up people.

[QuakeDuke]

Why are we all going round and round about the planets are made and being made anyhow ???
All you have t do is pick up a copy of Hitchhikers Guide to the Galaxy. They explaned everything.
Sheeez, Wake up people.

Prefect answer there DS, completely Prefect.

QD

[QuakeDuke]

The cool thing is that the behavior of the observable Universe seems to derive from very fundamental forces.

This should be (not saying it is, but it should be) a fact accepted by all who seriously seek to understand anything about our universe.

So: "Why does God need to involve Himself in a thunderclap?" is the same question as "Why does God need to involve Himself in the formation of a planet?"  Because thunder and planets are formed out of the same most basic underlying forces.

While thunder and planets may be formed out of the same most basic underlying forces, I don't see the questions as being the same. I really don't see God being involved with every thunderclap, or, for that matter, in the continued formation of planets. I do, however, see him very involved with (for the want of a better word) creating those underlying forces and setting in motion the criteria, blueprint, order, whatever you want to call it, that results in the continuing expansion and creation that we observe in our universe. 
 

By creating a Universe governed by fundamental forces, God hasn't left Himself _room_ to tamper with it.  Because such tampering would change outcomes that _should_ have been predictable based on the fundamental forces.

Isn't that a definition of supernatural or paranormal? An occurrence influenced by something (either known or unknown) that changes outcomes that should have been predictable based on (our understood and perceived) laws and fundamental forces? Don't we observe such occurrences quite often in science? Some call these miracles.  I've an interesting outlook on that which supersedes the normal, predictable, natural and and it comes from experiences many might say is entirely subjective and I would have to agree that it is so. Still doesn't make it any less inexplicable.

I am now - folds arms and looks to the left and says in his best Jack Benny voice - 39 years old ( insert here a very big ).  I was told (and by all natural "rules" should have been) I would be dead before I reached my 30th birthday. It has been an interesting life, not counting the 9 (yes count'em 9) major myocardial infarctions I have survived (the last in 1995) I have experienced all sorts of things that should have left me "bagged & tagged". None of the many doctors I have had over the years could explain why, within a year after each one my heart showed absolutely no damage. For those of you who may not know - a myocardial infarction is a form of heart attack and it kills the heart muscle itself. When I had my last full physical (I have one a year, the last one was spring '06 - due again in March '07) my heart shows no damage at all. And I could relate many more such things I have experienced and which are documented by someone other than "believers".

All that to say this - long before I became a Christian, I had already experienced enough above / beyond/ natural occurrences to set me to seeking and questing for answers and the answers science itself presents just wasn't / didn't / still doesn't and I suspect never will have the answers.

Unless God would tamper with stuff just to strain our ape-brains with trying to figure out why some observed event didn't seem to conform to any known natural laws.  But I think that may be a whole 'nother topic.

I think that is the drive behind scientific investigation isn't it? Trying to figure out why some observed event doesn't seem to conform to any (at presently) known natural laws? But I do agree it is a whole 'nother topic.

Quadz, I do enjoy your input immensely. Thank you.

QD

[[BTF]DeathStalker]

But should we rule out God's involvement (which seems to be the default response) just because we can apparently explain just by the physics involved how something happens apparently without requiring God's involvement (or at least his apparent non-involvement based on and according to our perception levels)?

Well the cool thing about this Universe, whether it was designed by God, or whether the Universe itself emerged the concept of God through monkey-brain evolution or whatever: (As an aside: "Who created the Universe?" and "Who created God?" seem to me fundamentally the same question.)

[reaper]

i was saying, since we don't know what happened before the big bang, the explanation of a planets creation doesn't suffice.  it could be wrong and/or incomplete.  in short, i don't think we have an explanation that is anywhere near solid, for how planets are created.

[quadz]

i was saying, since we don't know what happened before the big bang, the explanation of a planets creation doesn't suffice.

Huh???  How could whatever may or may not have happened before the Big Bang have any bearing on anything?

At the moment of the Big Bang, all of the matter and enegry in the Universe was supposedly compressed down to an infinitesimal point.  It's not supposed to 'matter' what happened before that.  Why do you think we need to know what happened before the big bang to understand how planets are formed?

It seems similar to if you want to know how people are formed biologically: you start at conception and work forward.  It doesn't really matter what happened before that...


Regards,

[reaper]

At the moment of the Big Bang, all of the matter and enegry in the Universe was supposedly compressed down to an infinitesimal point.  It's not supposed to 'matter' what happened before that.  Why do you think we need to know what happened before the big bang to understand how planets are formed?

since we don't know what happened before the big bang, you are assuming what happened before the big bang isn't part of the creation of the universe, and the planets within it.  the explanation of planets forming is incomplete, since we don't know what happens before the big bang.  for instance: what if something outside the universe creates the universe, to me that would be a huge part of how planets are formed.  that's just an example, the point is we don't know enough about the creation of planets, because we are lacking knowledge.

and you never helped we out with my programming question (i added another) in the troubleshooting section. this is your responsibility !
 

[quadz]

since we don't know what happened before the big bang, you are assuming what happened before the big bang isn't part of the creation of the universe, and the planets within it.

[[BTF]adam]

One wonders how you manage to tie your shoes in the morning, without knowing where the fibers in the laces came from. 


Regards,

quadz

tying? laces? velcro ftw ;]