Author Topic: Ye Religion Thread  (Read 1059940 times)

Offline Whirlingdervish

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Re: Ye Religion Thread
« Reply #555 on: January 22, 2007, 10:50:02 AM »
given 10 trillion oppurtunities for lets say a "1 in a 100 million shot for conditions to be adequate for life to come about" (i suspect the chance for life is in fact not this extreme). this leads to an assumption that approx. 100,000 planets should have life on them. it's hardly winning a lottery given the oppurtunity presented in this chaotic universe.

agreed. Few people seem to take into account that here on Earth, the only place we've ever been able to record evidence of any life, we can find life in such diversity that it doesn't always require sunlight to survive (tubeworms on the ocean floor) or oxygen to breath, or even water in reasonable quantities... Life (as we define it) is constantly finding new ways to thrive where nothing could previously survive.
As far as we've been able to tell, life on earth didn't even begin with life-forms that could breathe our current atmosphere.

I think that the number of planets that "could" support life, is just a small sub-group of the much larger group of planets where life is capable of existing in varying forms that we have never observed (-1 or 2 of the conditions required for life here.. like warmth,atmosphere,moisture...)
The level of adaptability that known living organisms display would make the chances of extra-terrestrial life existing in this un-measurably large universe, pretty darn good.
« Last Edit: January 22, 2007, 10:52:23 AM by Whirlingdervish(Q2C) »
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Offline QuakeDuke

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Re: Ye Religion Thread
« Reply #556 on: January 22, 2007, 11:34:30 AM »
If everybody in history was like that, we'd still be living in caves.

And working for Geico! 

QD
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Offline Whirlingdervish

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Re: Ye Religion Thread
« Reply #557 on: January 22, 2007, 11:40:26 AM »
selling dino-insurance?

 :D
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Offline DaHanG

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Re: Ye Religion Thread
« Reply #558 on: January 22, 2007, 12:43:31 PM »
Quote from: dahang
to say everything must have a cause, god must as well (as russel said). in the very BEGINNING there should NOT be a highly complex all-powerful being, because that in itself requires a HUGE explanation (far greater than any universe).

life such as ours forms by improbable chance, according to current scientific explanations, regarding the inception of the universe.  and you really can't make a comparison (on scientific grounds) between god, and the universe existing forever or coming from nothing, because we don't know enough about either.

current scientific explanations regard life as being special, but not a lottery like you believe.

the universe came from a singularity, not 'nothing'.

if we don't know enough about god scientifically, we don't make assumptions that he/she/it even exists. in the abscence of evidence for the existence of something, it's unscientific to say that particular something exists. that's why it's called faith (belief without evidence). having a strong inner conviction that god exists, or having him personally revealed to you is not how science works. :>.
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Offline reaper

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Re: Ye Religion Thread
« Reply #559 on: January 22, 2007, 01:37:37 PM »
Quote from: dahang
current scientific explanations regard life as being special, but not a lottery like you belie fromve.

science shows that this life originated from randomness (of four physical properties) during the inception of the universe.   based on this random event you will get a universe that can sustain life, or not sustain life.  i would categorize this life differently than life that lives in a two-dimensional world, and so on.  unfortunately science can't conceptualize this process.  in any event, the probability for the big bang to produce a universe like this is very very low.

Quote from: dahang
the universe came from a singularity, not 'nothing'.

i guess the question would be: how and why is the singularity always there?  i don't think we know enough about this to make comparisons to other theories yet.

for the record, god has not revealed himself to me  :help:
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Offline [BTF]DeathStalker

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Re: Ye Religion Thread
« Reply #560 on: January 22, 2007, 02:18:42 PM »
i don't think we know enough about this to make comparisons to other theories yet.

No, BUT BY GOLLY WE'RE GETTING THERE !!!
 :beer:
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Offline DaHanG

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Re: Ye Religion Thread
« Reply #561 on: January 22, 2007, 02:23:10 PM »
Quote from: dahang
current scientific explanations regard life as being special, but not a lottery like you belie fromve.

science shows that this life originated from randomness (of four physical properties) during the inception of the universe.   based on this random event you will get a universe that can sustain life, or not sustain life.  i would categorize this life differently than life that lives in a two-dimensional world, and so on.  unfortunately science can't conceptualize this process.  in any event, the probability for the big bang to produce a universe like this is very very low.

i don't know how you've concluded that life originated from randomness during the inception of the universe. the big bang occurred 13.7 billion years ago, and life on earth came about 3.5 billion years ago. life did NOT originate during the beginning of the universe.

it seems to me you're the king of the god of the gaps. since science can't explain everything and you don't like the concept of no supernatural guidance for life, god must exist.

to use you're own quotes against you - "the probability for the big bang to produce a universe like this is very very low." - (talking about planets being formed) -->"i'm just saying until we know more (about the creation of the universe) the explanation is incomplete", therefore we should not conclude that the probability of the big bang to produce a universe like this is very very low.

seriously, if you're going to say that we can't understand how planets are being formed (physically observable through our telescopes) because we don't know EVERYTHING about the big bang, how can you say whether the big bang's probability for life being possible (not observable, only speculation) is high/moderate/low since we know so little?

have you concluded that there is only _one_ possible universe for life to come about and an infinite number of universes unsuitable for life? shouldn't there be an infinite number of possibilities on both sides of the spectrum?

:ohlord:
« Last Edit: January 22, 2007, 02:30:02 PM by DaHanG »
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Offline quadz

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Re: Ye Religion Thread
« Reply #562 on: January 22, 2007, 02:34:43 PM »
the probability for the big bang to produce a universe like this is very very low.

Do you have any links explaining the theory behind this claim?

From the Stephen Hawking paper I posted, he's saying theory predicted why all these stars and galaxies would form--and that the COBE satellite data backs up the theory.
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Offline [BTF]DeathStalker

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Re: Ye Religion Thread
« Reply #563 on: January 22, 2007, 04:09:46 PM »
the probability for the big bang to produce a universe like this is very very low.

Man, even I know better than that. Of course the Big Bang caused it. Atleast based on the sientific facts that we have to day. Who knows, mabey some new discovery will shed light on another possble explanation. But for now, I agree. It was the Big Bang.

That's how God did it. He put all the ingredients in place, lined them up, switched out a few, made a few slight calibrations, and lit the fuse.
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Offline DaHanG

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Re: Ye Religion Thread
« Reply #564 on: January 22, 2007, 04:58:09 PM »
never underestimate the power of zeus.
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Offline metaL

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Re: Ye Religion Thread
« Reply #565 on: January 23, 2007, 10:54:48 AM »
anyone that believes in the big bang, in my opinion, has some serious mental issues.  To me, the chances of such an event taking place, and as a result creating such as place as Earth which is close to perfection a myriad of ways (lets just keep it simple and talk about Earth, let alone the rest of the entire universe and what may exist beyond) is closer to impossible than can be conceived by man.  i havent read any of this thread but i tend to support that events are caused.  no one knows what happened millions of years ago, so quit arguing about it... but their must have been an initial cause. that initial cause is what some theists, such as myself, believe is God.  No one can say that the universe has always existed, as if time spans backwards on to infinity.  Infinity is a concept; an idea.  It is inquantifyable in the physical realm and those who make sorry attempts to do so are profoundly mislead.

Just my 2 cents, peace.
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Offline reaper

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Re: Ye Religion Thread
« Reply #566 on: January 23, 2007, 11:02:52 AM »
Quote from: reaper
the probability for the big bang to produce a universe like this is very very low.


Quote from: quadz
Do you have any links explaining the theory behind this claim?

Quote from: freak in a wheelchair

"the remarkable fact is that the values of these numbers seem to have been very finely adjusted to make possible the development of life.
« Last Edit: January 23, 2007, 11:11:47 AM by reaper »
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Offline quadz

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Re: Ye Religion Thread
« Reply #567 on: January 23, 2007, 11:21:06 AM »
anyone that believes in the big bang, in my opinion, has some serious mental issues.

Fascinating.  What's your opinion on General Relativity?


Regards,

:exqueezeme:
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Offline DaHanG

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Re: Ye Religion Thread
« Reply #568 on: January 23, 2007, 11:26:03 AM »
Quote from: dahang
i don't know how you've concluded that life originated from randomness during the inception of the universe. the big bang occurred 13.7 billion years ago, and life on earth came about 3.5 billion years ago. life did NOT originate during the beginning of the universe.

in some respect life did indeed originate from the universe.   proper reasoning indicates: we don't know how much more understanding/explanation,  lies in paste tense.  if you are talking about the creation of life, and planets, context of conversation can be drawn to our lack of scientific knowledge, at the earliest events we "understand".

if by originate you mean "came from" then of course it did. you, however, said life came about DURING the INCEPTION of the universe, in which i am amazing you still failed to see after even quoting yourself.

Quote from: dahang
to use you're own quotes against you - "the probability for the big bang to produce a universe like this is very very low." - (talking about planets being formed) -->"i'm just saying until we know more (about the creation of the universe) the explanation is incomplete", therefore we should not conclude that the probability of the big bang to produce a universe like this is very very low.

life doesn't evolve by accident, darwanism isn't random.  it's interesting science predicts life(as we know it) requires extremley unlikley things to happen.   you can take what you want from that.     what i said was not contradictory, we can derive a lot of information from the big bang (such as how unlikely it is for life to form from it).  however  that doesn't mean we  know enough to make scientific comparisons about further explanations (how something is there, what caused it, etc.).

what comparisons are being made when we simply OBSERVE planets being formed with telescopes?

Quote from: dahang
have you concluded that there is only _one_ possible universe for life to come about and an infinite number of universes unsuitable for life? shouldn't there be an infinite number of possibilities on both sides of the spectrum?

to get a universe suitable for life - like this - you need to be extremely lucky.  for any life you still are dealing with very low probabilities.  you could put it on a graph, and universes that can't sustain life would be more likely to form.

of course it's 'lucky' in a sense that life - LIKE THIS - came about. that doesn't mean if the universe was slightly different that life - in some other sense - is highly improbable. i was EXTREMELY lucky to be born on exactly july 19, 1988 (out of all the possible dates). i was pretty lucky that i was born in usa (something like 2030 million out of a population of 5 billion or so at the time). i was very lucky that i was born in florida out of every region of the world, extremely lucky to have been born in the palm beach county, and it was statistically almost impossible to have been born in lake worth, florida at 6:23 pm out of every possible location. i'll even leave out the fact that i was a human instead of one of 100 million+ possible species so our heads don't explode.

bottom line: we have to accept what we see, no matter how improbable my birthdate/location was, it did indeed happen. and yes, in a sense by accident (i had no control over being born in Cairo, Egypt - Africa April 2nd, 992 BC).

Quote from: reaper
i guess the question would be: how and why is the singularity always there?
Quote from: quadz
If you're going to ask that question, you can't solve it by saying God was always there.

you can answer things anyway you want, someone finding your explanation reasonable is another story.  i think it's reasonable that we don't know enough information about how, and why the singularity is there.    since we don't know enough (practically anything considering the scope) of why and how the singularity is there, i wouldn't find it reasonable to say it's more likely it was just there.  you can look at darwanism, and say things can become complex from something simple - sure - you could then relate this to the beggining of our understanding of the universe.  this doesn't mean it's more reasonable (by scientific methods) that there is no god, and that something is just there. we are lacking to much information for comparison.  i look at the big bang theory, and say it supports an argument for a higher power. this is because i don't think things happen by accidental cause (comprehension of gods cause is irrelevent in this point) ,  and life doesn't form from unlikley probabilities.

like i said, god of the gaps :>.
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Offline quadz

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Re: Ye Religion Thread
« Reply #569 on: January 23, 2007, 11:32:04 AM »
Quote from: reaper
i guess the question would be: how and why is the singularity always there?
Quote from: quadz
If you're going to ask that question, you can't solve it by saying God was always there.
you can answer things anyway you want, someone finding your explanation reasonable is another story.

No, what I mean is such an answer solves nothing.
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    Frag of the Week
    Frag Hall of Fame
    Jump of the Week
    Jump Hall of Fame
    Best Solution
    Wins The Internet
    Whoosh! You done missed the joke thar Cletus!
    Obvious Troll Is Obvious
    DO YOU EVEN LIFT?
    DEMO OR STFU
    Offtopic
    Flamebait
    Redundant
    Factually Challenged
    Preposterously Irrational Arguments
    Blindingly Obvious Logical Fallacies
    Absurd Misconstrual of Scientific Principles or Evidence
    Amazing Conspiracy Theory Bro
    Racist Ignoramus
"He knew all the tricks, dramatic irony, metaphor, bathos, puns, parody, litotes and... satire. He was vicious."

 

El Box de Shoutamente

Last 10 Shouts:

 

Costigan_Q2

November 11, 2024, 06:41:06 AM
"Stay cozy folks.

Everything is gonna be fine."

There'll be no excuses for having TDS after January 20th, there'll be no excuses AT ALL!!!
 

|iR|Focalor

November 06, 2024, 03:28:50 AM
 

RailWolf

November 05, 2024, 03:13:44 PM
Nice :)

Tom Servo

November 04, 2024, 05:05:24 PM
The Joe Rogan Experience episode 223 that dropped a couple hours ago with Musk, they're talking about Quake lol.
 

Costigan_Q2

November 04, 2024, 03:37:55 PM
Stay cozy folks.

Everything is gonna be fine.
 

|iR|Focalor

October 31, 2024, 08:56:37 PM
 

Costigan_Q2

October 17, 2024, 06:31:53 PM
Not activated your account yet?

Activate it now! join in the fun!

Tom Servo

October 11, 2024, 03:35:36 PM
HAHAHAHAHAHA
 

|iR|Focalor

October 10, 2024, 12:19:41 PM
I don't worship the devil. Jesus is Lord, friend. He died for your sins. He will forgive you if you just ask.
 

rikwad

October 09, 2024, 07:57:21 PM
Sorry, I couldn't resist my inner asshole.

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