Ye Religion Thread

[reaper]

The Big Bang is like a reset button for space-time.

[JaQuIO]

this thread is old and the planet is even older i think we should save ourselves the time and just say none of us know what the hell we are talking about and give the "im gonna prove you wrong" ego a break because this thread is starting to make less sense and less sense . agreed? let's just lock this thread...

[DWxchzrles]

JaQuIO no

[QuakeDuke]

this thread is old and the planet is even older i think we should save ourselves the time and just say none of us know what the hell we are talking about and give the "im gonna prove you wrong" ego a break because this thread is starting to make less sense and less sense . agreed? let's just lock this thread...

  What!? And put to bed one of the few forum threads where I actually see people sharing their opinions (for the most part) with a minimum (someone always sets us back on course) of what you call the "I'm gonna prove you wrong ego"? 

Jamais ! Donnez-nous la libert

[[BTF]Defiant!]

The Big Bang is like a reset button for space-time.  It's not supposed to matter what happened before it.

who says it's not supposed to matter what happens before the big bang.
<snip>

1) You are taking quadz out of context.  You seemed to imply earlier that science doesn't explain the formation of the planets and mentioned that science can't explain how the universe was formed.. that didn't seem to be a logical progression.


2) I don't see what is difficult in understanding the formation of planets -- I'm not saying the process is perfectly understood, but I don't see what stumbling blocks there are.   It seems like you are expecting science to have an answer to EVERYTHING before it has value.  That seems unreasonable.  Your answers feel like you are just trying to dismiss science.  Of course what science currently understands is limited -- it isn't about making unfounded assumptions.   It is about open, pursuit of truth.

Shouldn't everyone who cares about real truth (gospel truth, real truth, TRUTH!) embrace science because it openly, without ego, slowly builds our knowledge.  If your faith is in what is true, that truth could be revealed through science and certainly couldn't be refuted by science (or else it wasn't true, right?). 

Obviously, science isn't the only pursuit of truth but I don't see it as conflicting.  And, I see this as the valuable point I think you are making.. roughly "don't expect science to help you find meaning to the universe".


3) As an analogy, what if I told you I thought the movie The Matrix was literally real and we all live in it.   Imagine trying to convince me otherwise.  The most basic question you would ask me is, "Why do you think the world is The Matrix when that idea flys in the face of the more practical explaination of it merely being a movie".   

Bringing this silly example back to reality, how is this Matrix assumption different from your faith?   I'd ask you the same question.. why do you believe as you do?   You've dismissed the of other faiths.. you've dismissed the literalisms of the majority of the beliefs in the world (e.g. Christiantiy is <50%) and accepted or formed one yourself.


4) I apprecaite this discussion/debate, rather than any of us just assuming we are right.  It is good and healthy.


Def

[reaper]

i'm not satisfied with the current explanation of how planets are formed.

[quadz]

The Big Bang is like a reset button for space-time.

[reaper]

if something is outside this universe, who is to say the laws of this universe apply to it. it would just mean our laws don't always apply. i think stephen hawking is speaking under the presumption that the laws of physics apply no matter what, and to everything.  if something created the universe, why he thinks it would apply to that higher power is a little strange.

either way what happened before the big bang could be a big part of how planets are formed.

[quadz]

either way what happened before the big bang could be a big part of how planets are formed.

Only if you change the rules and say: I don't care that the laws of physics that we already understand are sufficient to explain how planets form, and that we can model it mathematically and it works, and we can look through telescopes and see it actually happening.  Instead, I want to add some extra complexity that exists outside the universe that's allowed to affect things even before the Big Bang.

But why would we want to add this extra complexity?

"Any intelligent fool can make things bigger and more complex... It
takes a touch of genius - and a lot of courage to move in the opposite
direction." --Albert Einstein


Regards,

quadz

[[BTF]Defiant!]

if something is outside this universe, who is to say the laws of this universe apply to it. it would just mean our laws don't always apply. i think stephen hawking is speaking under the presumption that the laws of physics apply no matter what, and to everything.  if something created the universe, why he thinks it would apply to that higher power is a little strange.

either way what happened before the big bang could be a big part of how planets are formed.

Let's get to the point.  Why do you believe a supernatural force affected the formation of planets?   

Your evidence is that a supernatual force could have done it -- which is the weakest possible evidence.  So, I would assume it is a matter of faith for you -- you believe it without evidence.

Def

[reaper]

I don't care that the laws of physics that we already understand are sufficient to explain how planets form, and that we can model it mathematically and it works, and we can look through telescopes and see it actually happening.

until we know how the universe was created, we don't fully know how planets are formed. i think knowing why and how something is just there, or if there was something there before, could be a huge part of that explanation.

[quadz]

I don't care that the laws of physics that we already understand are sufficient to explain how planets form, and that we can model it mathematically and it works, and we can look through telescopes and see it actually happening.

until we know how the universe was created, we don't fully know how planets are formed.

That's exactly like saying: Until we know who created the Flying Spaghetti Monster, we can't fully know how beets grow.

i think knowing why and how something is just there, or if there was something there before, could be a huge part of that explanation.

But it's not _needed_.  Look at it this way: if there is a God, then by His grace He has blessed us with a Universe which apparently operates according to a very few fundamental forces, and God has gifted us with enough intelligence to perceive and reason about these fundamental forces.  And what we have learned is the fundamental forces themselves are enough to explain how planets form, already, with no additional supernatural forces required.

so i dont think we know enough to say god is more complex than another explanation.

[DaHanG]

man i'm sorry, i literally twinge when i read reaper's posts from the last few pages. quadz, i FEEL your pain. rock on, godz!

until we know how the universe was created, we don't fully know how planets are formed.

you've repeated this at least 4-5 times.

the universe was created approx. 13.7 billion years ago. earth is 4.6 billion years old. the creation of earth (a planet) and the creation of the universe are independent events. it's as if i shouldn't be content with understanding where paper came from because we don't know what happened before the big bang: a tree which came from a seed which came from another tree and so on to a single cell organism. just because there's a long regress doesn't mean completely observable, simple phenomena should be dismissed.

it's like saying i'm not satisfied with why there is something rather than nothing, so i will not be content with the concept of the water cycle. because we don't understand where this something came from, we can't fully understand the water cycle (evaporation/condensation/precipitation).

[[BTF]Defiant!]

until we know how the universe was created, we don't fully know how planets are formed.

Again, why do you believe that the planets were formed by a supernatural being? 

This conversation is like a court case with a bad defense attorney.  Some guy is caught, all the evidence points to him.  His defense attorney knows all the evidence points to his defendant as the one that committed the crime.  So, his only defense is to say, "a supernatural force committed the crime -- you can't prove my defendant did it!" 

In fact, you've taken this a step further by saying that until not only the entire universe is fully explained no conclusions can be drawn.  You certainly couldn't be applying this reasoning in your daily life -- you would never do anything.  My Mom could be a robot.  We could be in the Matrix.  Etc..  But why would anyone believe this?

It is a stronger statement, though not scientific, if you said, "I believe it because I believe in the literal truth of the Bilble (or similar)."

the fact that according to science, the universe could form any number of ways, the majority being non condusive to life as we know it, is evidence supporting a higher power.  at this point it's not exactly scientific evidence, but it's an argument for a higher power.  you can draw the conclusion something is just there, because it's less complex than something creating the universe outside the universe. or you can say if something existed before the big bang, it would be more complex than the matter just being there.  but since there is not much at all backing that claim, no more than me saying it's ridiculous to assume things happened by accident, and it's extreme luck we are here -it would be a matter of opinion not based on solid evidence.

Maybe it is extreme luck that we are here, or maybe it isn't at all.  If I were mold in my home, I might say, "What extreme luck that I found myself under the lid of the garbage can!  So many other places around the home are barren!"  When actually, mold just didn't form elsewhere for exactly that reason.   In fact, it is tough to keep that dang mold from growing there.

Similarly, it is like saying that someone who wins the lottery experienced a miracle.. ok, but not really when considering the other million people who lost.  I like the lottery example, because it is a "miracle" from the personal perspective, but certainly not in any practical sense.


I think this is the crux of my angle on this conversation.  You seem to be defending your beliefs with pseudo-science.  Let your beliefs stand on their own and call them faith only.  Don't purport there is any reasonable scientific basis for it and don't dismiss that it flys in the face of common scientific knowledge.  In other words, know where you stand and why. 

Def

[reaper]

Maybe it is extreme luck that we are here, or maybe it isn't at all.

according to science it is. if the creation of the universe is a one shot deal, it would seem even more peculiar, even though the probability of this type of life would be the same at each inception of the universe.