Ye Religion Thread

[QuakeDuke]

Yeah, follow his teachings. Here are some things you should do according to the Bible.

Kill People

Good pull c1ruc1try - I notice the references were all pre-new testament references (the one from the new testament references the ot teaching) - Things are a bit different in the new testament but what I was going to mention was the bible isn't the only "holy text" to espouse the teachings you emphasize.
QD

[[BTF]DeathStalker]

hmm, pretty much what i expected. i was hoping to have some more specific reasoning on why you think satan intrudes peoples souls (or however it works) and makes them bad. why did god "choose" to give you these unique revelations that cannot be shared based on reason? why do the majority of the people lack them? are you more 'special' than all buddhists?

That's the problem. There IS no specific reason. I'ts a culminary of different things over the coarse of onces life.
Things you see, witness, feel over the coarse of ones life. Seeking explanations for things science can't explane, or have explaned in a way that doesn't add up in ones opinion. It starts there. Once the question has been asked "how did this come to be?" then the quest for knowledge and understanding has begun. I found my answers in the Holy Bible. Others found there's in other places. The Bible was the only source i found that actually answered my questions, it was the only source that made sense.
God did not choose us to have these unique revelations that cannot be shared based on reason? We just had them, that's all.
Anyone can have them. They just have to have an open mind about it. A willingness to accept something that science cannot PROVE. For some people, if "science" does not PROVE it, then it doesn't excist. This produces a close mind and heart. Those are the folks that don't "get it" In order to recieve something you have to be OPEN to recieve it.

Do the majority of the people lack them? Are we more 'special' than all buddhists? No. In fact most people have them. They inturprit them differently than others. They may have been taught something different that others. Depending on where they found there answers.

33% (maybe 38% depending on source) of the world is christian. out of 20+ religions

WOW, out of 20+ we take up a Third of the entire world? Cool, even I didn't know it was that popular.

perhaps various cultures simply invented their own religions for morality and to explain nature. that's my bet. i'm curious, tell me what you think of this deathstalker:

http://www.filecabi.net/video/atheist-delusion.html

Not sure, mabey the other various religions did. Haven't ever studied them that in depth to know for sure. But i may be biosed, because from what i understand from the bible, our religion wasn't "invented". It Developed over time based on actual events and eye witness accounts recorded throughout history.

regardless of how silly it rationally seems.

i see no reason it would seem irrational to not find a higher power probable

you can say,
well we have morals, because of our society, and how were wired after we evolved
or you can say, a higher power made us that way
you can say,
there is a one billion chance for life to spawn on each planet, and it's just chance we are on one of those planets
or you could say, this is the perfect world out of all worlds, and it's because god is part of human life
you could make a never ending list like this, but to say it's irrational to side both ways or one way on these points seems silly to me

and god fits in with science now, and if it ever doesn't, it doesn't matter, because god could be all powerfull anyways

Ok, you have totally lost me. If you want to post here, fine. It's a free country.
If you want to post here and have me understand what the hell it is your saying, hire a dictator and have him/her translate it into english.

The bible cannot be used for evidence to prove anything in an debate. The bible is nothing more than an incredibly violent love story, but at the same time with how you interpret it, it presents a set of guidelines for one to be happy. Oh, and Jesus taught the old testament all of his life, so fuck the whole new vs old testament bullshit as well. Haunted is not taking sides. Haunted is simply pointing out a few things.

What??? Yes the bible is perfectly acceptable as proof. No difference in using the Dead Sea Scrolls, or the US bill of rights for that matter. It's not a fiction tale, it's a written record of historical facts. You just choose not to believe that that's what is is.
I choose not to believe my American History Book too. It's full of Poo, and "I" don't agree with it.

If it's permissible, I would like to ask a question here though. Where does the idea God sends people to hell come from? I can't seem to find it anywhere...

QD

I do not know Duke.
From what i've learned you have to almost demand to go there to be sent there.

You're an idiot. You even spell Satan wrong.

Yes i know, i've already been told, Thank you.

You take Genesis literary and think god made man in a day

YeeeaNo I never said that.
It took an exremely long time. I believe what i said in my original thread was this:

4. People everywhere criticizes the Bible says the world was created in five days when in fact it took millions of years. Obviously they didn

[haunted]

Comparing the bible (which was passed down orally for many years, changed multiple times, and translated and re-translated multiple times) with the bill of rights (original copy available) is idiotic.

[[BTF]DeathStalker]

Comparing the bible (which was passed down orally for many years, changed multiple times, and translated and re-translated multiple times) with the bill of rights (original copy available) is idiotic.

So has most of all the recorded history of the world. Look up exactly when written records first started being kept.

[Whirlingdervish]

[ Look up exactly when written records first started being kept.

um sumeria? 3000bc or so?
cuneiform anyone?
(off the top of my head...)

anyone consider cave paintings to be a written record? then we go back to 40,000 years ago in africa..

II implied that the imaginary relationships between humans and a god who possibly does or doesn't exist

1: But how can we truly know the relationship between someone and God is imaginary?

humans who have proven for millenia that they think they are much more important than they really are in the face of the staggeringly large universe that surrounds us.

2: This is definately NOT unique to religious people. It seems to be another one of those things common to humanity.

3: Why do you say the realtionships are one sided?

1: we can't know anything for certain. nothing can be proven absolutely, only disproven. this is the basic concept behind all science. (which can be applied to everything that is observable, even religious conduct by primates...)

2: yes I agree. all humans are selfish by design. (it's an encoded instinctual self-preservation behavior)
Unlike any other product of the old genetic dice roll that we have ever encountered, we do have a choice to act as we please regardless of our DNA's design.
This is why people can act unselfishly, or even gay for that matter.

3: Relationships involve giving and taking. What do we have to offer someone (or thing) that knows all things. All we can possibly hope to do in a relationship with god is to influence the tiniest bit of our lives by allying ourselves with a higher power than chance... We have nothing to give. Faith is not viable currency and I doubt god (if it/he/she exists) needs anything.. much less our "faith".


 

[reaper]

one time i was at this christian meeting.

[QuakeDuke]

jesus wept.
 

John 11:35 - the first verse I ever memorized. Does anyone have any idea why Jesus wept?

It wasn't because Lazarus had died. It wasn't because of the (obvious) grief and sorrow of Lazarus' sisters and friends (of whom Jesus was one) as great as that was.
 
Jesus wept because he was about to bring Lazarus back from a better place smack dab into this world of self-righteous pundits who are convinced they know the answers to everything, and if they don't will quote someone who is supposed to have attained, somehow, through the process of "hard work" and "education" and pasting together theories (provable or not) this knowledge they insist is the only truth  because it's based on "science" or "scientific methods" and if it's not "provable" it's because we just haven't "attained" the necessary educational knowledge to do that. Then, we throw out everything else as "supernatural" hocum because we can't see, feel, touch, taste, quantify, dissect, measure or otherwise understand it with the knowledge we currently have.

If mankind really didn't believe in the supernatural, didn't believe in demons, Satan or God, there wouldn't be the plethora of movies, books, tv shows and computer games based on those very things. I mean comeon, it's not the so-called "undeducated" religious masses who are writing these games, movies and books (maybe it's just us "uneducated" ones they write them for? )

The 2nd law of thermodynamics has been mentioned a bit here and there during these discussions. Ok. Let's for a moment look at things from a physics viewpoint. How about Newton's Laws of motion? It would seem the thrid law would apply and I will be willing to bet many can even quote it. Where we run into trouble is in the same as with any "quoted" authority - you either accept it or reject it and everything anyone else may say is filtered through that acceptance or rejection. So, we fail to learn.

A professor once said "So what's the big deal? Many people have known Newton's first law since eight grade (or earlier); and if prompted with the first few lines could probably recite the law word for word. And what is so terribly difficult about remembering that F = ma? It seems to be merely a simple algebraic statement for solving story problems. The big deal however is not the ability to recite the first law nor to use the second law to solve problems; but rather the ability to understand their meaning and to believe their implications. While most people know what Newton's laws say, many people do not know what they mean (or simply do not believe  what they mean). Cognitive scientists (scientists who study how people learn) have shown that physics students come into physics class with a set of beliefs which they are unwilling (or not easily willing) to discard despite evidence to the contrary. These beliefs about motion (known as misconceptions) hinder further learning. The task of overcoming misconceptions involves becoming aware of the misconceptions, considering alternative conceptions or explanations, making a personal evaluation of the two competing ideas and adopting a new conception as more reasonable than the previously held-misconception. This process involves self-reflection (to ponder your own belief systems), critical thinking (to analyze the reasonableness of two competing ideas), and evaluation (to select the most reasonable and harmonious model which explains the world of motion).

Whether we accept it, believe or not, both exist - natural and supernatural - the prepoderance of human history and science proves it, not disproves it.  If we're going to use science as an authority, let's not fall into the same trap so many do and pick and choose only what will support our own beliefs and theories, let us truly examine with an open mind the concept we just might not "know anything yet as we ought to know."

I truly have enjoyed reading the posts, but they seem to me (ah, I see, another subjective observation eh?) to have stalled into a kind of    my side is right and there's no use in discussing it any farther 'cause I ain't gonna listen 'cause you obviously are too ________ (you fill in the blank) to know what you're talking about. Come on. You all are above that. I know among all of you are insights that can really help us all. Feed me!!!!

Unless... it doesn't really matter because no one really cares about the discussion anyway, just care about being "right"... 

QD

[DaHanG]

33% (maybe 38% depending on source) of the world is christian. out of 20+ religions

WOW, out of 20+ we take up a Third of the entire world? Cool, even I didn't know it was that popular.

I did, it's called slaughtering various tribes/cultures and forcing religion on others. look at history, christianity did not spread because of the word of jesus, but by the swing of the sword.

and for you claiming the bible presents perfect factual history, i stop the debate because nothing useful will come out besides pure disagreement in my opinion. hell, if i 'knew' the koran was true, why would i have any interest in a piece of fiction like the bible? if you look at all religions factually, people were simply in need to cope with life's hardships, so a new religion was created. i highly suggest looking up the cargo cults to see great examples although it is still self-evident in all religions (with the exception of scientology maybe, which i know little about).

[QuakeDuke]

hmm, pretty much what i expected. i was hoping to have some more specific reasoning on why you think satan intrudes peoples souls (or however it works) and makes them bad. why did god "choose" to give you these unique revelations that cannot be shared based on reason? why do the majority of the people lack them? are you more 'special' than all buddhists? one thing to consider is that only 33% (maybe 38% depending on source) of the world is christian. if christianity (which preaches god is perfect - all knowing, all powerful, omnibenevolent) is the one true religion, why are these believers (out of 20+ religions with over 100,000 followers) a minority compared to the rest of the world? perhaps various cultures simply invented their own religions for morality and to explain nature. that's my bet. i'm curious, tell me what you think of this deathstalker:

While you didn't ask this of me directly I would like to pose a question to you, and if you can truly answer the question, I will answer yours.

If as you say, the christian is in the minority in the world and thusly of little consequence or influence in the world are they the most persecuted of all faiths? Why is it of alll faiths can the christian be ridiculed, castegated, imprisoned, beheaded and otherwise mistreated and no one will lift a finger, say or do anything in their defense, yet if the situation were reversed and ANY OTHER faith treated like christians are treated there is immediate calls for reprisal or retribution?

QD

[DaHanG]

[ Look up exactly when written records first started being kept.

um sumeria? 3000bc or so?
cuneiform anyone?
(off the top of my head...)

anyone consider cave paintings to be a written record? then we go back to 40,000 years ago in africa..

impossible! the earth is only 6000 years old! 

[DaHanG]

hmm, pretty much what i expected. i was hoping to have some more specific reasoning on why you think satan intrudes peoples souls (or however it works) and makes them bad. why did god "choose" to give you these unique revelations that cannot be shared based on reason? why do the majority of the people lack them? are you more 'special' than all buddhists? one thing to consider is that only 33% (maybe 38% depending on source) of the world is christian. if christianity (which preaches god is perfect - all knowing, all powerful, omnibenevolent) is the one true religion, why are these believers (out of 20+ religions with over 100,000 followers) a minority compared to the rest of the world? perhaps various cultures simply invented their own religions for morality and to explain nature. that's my bet. i'm curious, tell me what you think of this deathstalker:

While you didn't ask this of me directly I would like to pose a question to you, and if you can truly answer the question, I will answer yours.

If as you say, the christian is in the minority in the world and thusly of little consequence or influence in the world are they the most persecuted of all faiths? Why is it of alll faiths can the christian be ridiculed, castegated, imprisoned, beheaded and otherwise mistreated and no one will lift a finger, say or do anything in their defense, yet if the situation were reversed and ANY OTHER faith treated like christians are treated there is immediate calls for reprisal or retribution?

QD

i do not really get your point, but perhaps it's because you missed mine. i said christianity is A minority of the world population, although they are indeed the biggest individual religion. maybe i'm missing something but i do not currently see people being persecuted because they are christians.

[DaHanG]

Whether we accept it, believe or not, both exist - natural and supernatural

explain how you know this. just because there are complex scientific findings on physics does not mean the supernatural exists. ever heard of quantum theory? 

don't resort to the bible either as proof 

[haunted]

Comparing the bible (which was passed down orally for many years, changed multiple times, and translated and re-translated multiple times) with the bill of rights (original copy available) is idiotic.

So has most of all the recorded history of the world. Look up exactly when written records first started being kept.

So what, I'm talking about what you said, not most of all recorded history in the world.

[QuakeDuke]

Whether we accept it, believe or not, both exist - natural and supernatural

explain how you know this. just because there are complex scientific findings on physics does not mean the supernatural exists. ever heard of quantum theory? 
don't resort to the bible either as proof 

Well, although I have been challenged to do just that, I don't believe I've yet "resorted" to the bible as "proof" of any of the discussions I've been part of yet, not yet having seen the need.

I'm er.. passing familiar with it. But don't you see how that illustrates the point? QT explains what Newton had no way of knowing, fixed the holes in the lack of knowldege and understanding so to speak. If someone had tried to explain QT to Netwon he would have repsonded much in the way most people do today to things they can't quantify, see, or believe exists- he would have probably said ur nuts! -  Bottom line with QT and Newton's laws are QT does not negate Newton's laws, but enchances them. Just because Newton could not see or quantify atoms and their behavior, did not mean they did not exist. The inablity to see, measure, or understand a concept can't be taken as prima facie evidence something that does not exist.  The early pioneers of all sciences were looked on as _______ (you fill in the blank) because of the revolutionary ideas they somehow "knew" something that no one else did.

Like a good friend of mine once said - "I'll believe in God's existence and our answerablity to His higher laws just to be on the safe side. I'd rather believe in Him and be wrong, than to not believe in Him and be wrong. If I believe in Him and I'm wrong I've lost nothing - If I don't believe and I'm wrong - well, the consequences of that choice I don't want to think about." Of course someone will now say "Yeah, well, I choose  not to believe." That's cool. But who's to say we won't all stand before the God no one wants to admit exists and give account of the lives we have lived in this present existence? Newton would never have accepted the existence of atoms and QT but as we now know, he would have been grieviously in error.

QD

[DaHanG]

Whether we accept it, believe or not, both exist - natural and supernatural

explain how you know this. just because there are complex scientific findings on physics does not mean the supernatural exists. ever heard of quantum theory? 
don't resort to the bible either as proof 

Like a good friend of mine once said - "I'll believe in God's existence and our answerablity to His higher laws just to be on the safe side. I'd rather believe in Him and be wrong, than to not believe in Him and be wrong. If I believe in Him and I'm wrong I've lost nothing - If I don't believe and I'm wrong - well, the consequences of that choice I don't want to think about." Of course someone will now say "Yeah, well, I choose  not to believe." That's cool. But who's to say we won't all stand before the God no one wants to admit exists and give account of the lives we have lived in this present existence? Newton would never have accepted the existence of atoms and QT but as we now know, he would have been grieviously in error.

QD

this is something i have a real problem with. if you really look closely, this is nothing more than scare tactics. you honestly think God is not sophisticated enough to judge his creation on actions moreso than beliefs? life is not a 'contest' to see who got it right in the afterlife. anyways, what if you're wrong about the great JuJu at the bottom of the sea? we could all be wrong. and those who have thought it out and lack belief cannot 'fake' their belief to an all knowing god. isn't it possible
that atheists get bonus points in heaven for being so courageously skeptical?

your thoughts on science only proves that science is queerer (stranger) than we can ever imagine. it does not mean there is magic behind nature.