Ye Religion Thread

[QuakeDuke]

*looking forward to new posts from the religious zealots : )

Zealots? Zealots? We have zealots?    I'll bet they're not all "religious" - at least not in the way it apparently has been defined in this thread... - being a zealot doesn't = religion by any means.

Quadz has come closer to the definition than anyone has, and I asked questions hoping someone would expand a bit on the idea, but I guess everyone has their minds made up that if you're religious (as relates to christianity anyway - I haven't seen much downing of any other "faith" - why, do you reckon that is?), you're somehow and under(un)educated fool that is a part of a lower class not worthy of having an opinion or worthy only to be totally ridiculed when it's expressed. It is precisely this type of closed mindedness I've talked from the begining that is the reason people don't get along. I've said it before and will continue to say it - everyone should have the right to express their opinion and expect it to be respectfully accepted (after all, that's what YOU expect isn't it?) - whether anyone else believes or agrees with that opinion is irrelavant to someone's right to have and express it. I'm glad to say, for the most part, I see that respectfulness in most of the posts. Most, not all.

As Quadz says, religion doesn't have anything to do with spirituality. I can guarantee you  I lived very religiously before I chose to become a christian - and, no, I'm not some under(un)educated hillbilly that blindly accepts everything that comes doen the pike - I have two masters (one in science by the way) and I've been fighting against ignorace like that for almost 30 years.

To put it bluntly, In the jungle I was very religious about keeping my weapons clean - to do any less meant death. I was, for a time, very religious about all the drugs I did, all the girls I banged and alcohol I drank. Religion has no more  to do with being a spiritual moral person than belonging to a particular politcal party makes you more qualified to govern. If you would like a good rule of thumb to judge how spiritual and moral a being you are consider: You are only as moral and spiritual as it affects your behavior. Therein lies the conundrum - people who talk the talk but won't walk the walk. None of this "society defines moral junk" either. Infacide, patricide, genocide, rape, murder, stealing (I don't have enough room to list them all) are just as wrong in the most primitive societies as they are in the more "enlightened" ones.

A good argument could be made for the case (the romans and a half-dozen other empires spring to mind) the more immoral, ammoral a society becomes, the more chaos ensues and that society will fall.

Come on people. step out of your ruts and think - not react.

Respectfully,

QD

[QuakeDuke]

Humans have some inatate "morality", an instict if you will. Like the instinct of a mother protecting her young. This is coded in our genes, because it has an evolutionary advantage. A species that murders each other would not survive very long. Also, civilization creates moral demans. The needs of the many over your individual needs.

Very good. There does exist in man a measure of inate morality - and the reasons you list are ver good, and civilization (I use the term lightly ) does make laws that are supposed to enforce the "better" of those morals. It's too bad the lawmakers so often substitue their own interpretations of those morals and make laws to "force" others to follow them. This is a true saying "You cannot legislate morality"

In the grand scheme of things all actions are neutral

Speaking only for myself here I don't believe all actions are neutral. History itself would seem to indicate choices made can have lasting effects on a nation, etc.

and you won't be punished by a sadistic god after you die.

This is true. From a christian standpoint (if I may) or any of the other faiths I've studied (I could be wrong - after all, I'm still a pretty young kid) I've never found where God is involved in the punishment found in most expressions of the after life.

However, in order for ou species to exist we have to be somewhat moral, and not kll each other.
My point is religion does not create morality. In fact it may do the opposite, due to religious intolerance, idiots fighting holy wars, and blowing themselves up.

Again, very good, especially about religion not creating morality. I can guarantee the intolerance makes the situation worse not better. We have history's example to show us that.

QD

[DaHanG]

I've never found where God is involved in the punishment found in most expressions of the after life.

i fail to see the point of this statement. is it significant from a hell-bound human whether god himself or satan is committing the torture? torture is torture! if i inferred incorrectly, then..

sure, not believing in God is not related to the punishment at all!

[reaper]

quakeduke -
i believe your entitled to your opinion.

[quadz]

I've never found where God is involved in the punishment found in most expressions of the after life.

If God created everything, didn't God create Hell?  And, er... "Satin"? 

Or, at least, God created "Satin", and allowed "Satin" to create Hell?  Either way, God is permitting Hell to exist, apparently.

If God decides who's been naughty, and who's been nice, and who gets into Heaven and who gets sent to Hell, then in what way is god not involved?

 

[[BTF]DeathStalker]

I've never found where God is involved in the punishment found in most expressions of the after life.

If God created everything, didn't God create Hell? And, er... "Satin"?

Or, at least, God created "Satin", and allowed "Satin" to create Hell? Either way, God is permitting Hell to exist, apparently.

If God decides who's been naughty, and who's been nice, and who gets into Heaven and who gets sent to Hell, then in what way is god not involved?

 

First of all, not trying to force my beliefs on anyone as my beliefs in this are irrelevant, but to answer that question. God created and allowed Satan to do what he did as a result of giving his Angels free will just as we have free will.
Then he created hell to house Satan and his followers. That's as far as Gods involvement goes.
God does not decide who goes to Heaven or Hell. We decide that for ourselves using our own free will. God gave us the tools and knowledge to know how to get to Heaven, it's up to us to decide from there if we want to use, believe, or accept them.

Here is a joke that I believe could be relivant here.

A man was drowning in the Ocean. He looked up and begged God to save him from drowning.
10min later a small sailboat happened to see him and went to rescue him.
Upon getting there the man told his would be rescuers that there was no need, God will rescue me.
Thinking the man had lost his mind, they sailed on to a fishing trolly they had seen earlier to get help.
So the Fishing Trolly steamed his direction. Upon arriving he told them the same thing, God will rescue me.
After that the men on the fishing trolly radioed the Coast Guard.
So the Coast Gaurd sent out there Helicopter. Upon arriving, same story, God will rescue me.
Well by that time the man was out of strength and drowned.
When he went before God the man was clearly angry with God. When God questioned the man why is so angry, the man said I believed that you would save me and "you let me drown"!
But then God said what do you mean "I let you drown"?
I sent you a sail boat, fishing trolly, AND a helicopter.

[reaper]

quake dukie, deathstalker

why don't

[[BTF]DeathStalker]

I don't know eeeeeverything about the Bib;e.
I've read it cover to cover twice. Ceartain Chapter more. I've never read where it says the world is only 6000 years old.
Can you give me a Book-Chapter ref # please.

[QuakeDuke]

quake dukie, deathstalker
why don't  you address this statement

doesn't it say the world was created 6,000 years ago.  don't we see light originating from things well over 6,000 years old, etc..
doesn't it contradict evolution, when evolution has been proven almost to the extent of having it video taped

you speak as though heaven and hell are real (just like the bible says)
and that the bible is truth if the bible is true, care to comment on the in your face reality quoted above, that proves the bible is not true?

I thought I had commented on this before but I do have a problem with memory these days -- so again, I've never seen anywhere in any of the original languages (chaldean, hebrew, aramaic or greek) where the bible states the world was created only 6.000 years ago. I DO know where the concept originated, but, like many other misconceptions it stems from man's "interpretation" rather than what is actually stated.

The second part of your comment I have to address, as  I have before - why do you attempt to use as an authority something you don't believe is an authority? How can one use something they don't believe is truth to prove something isn't true? You say "if the bible is true" and then try to use concepts you say are from the bible to "proves the bible is not true". ????

Regards,

QD

[QuakeDuke]

I've never found where God is involved in the punishment found in most expressions of the after life.

If God created everything, didn't God create Hell?  And, er... "Satin"? 

Or, at least, God created "Satin", and allowed "Satin" to create Hell?  Either way, God is permitting Hell to exist, apparently.

If God decides who's been naughty, and who's been nice, and who gets into Heaven and who gets sent to Hell, then in what way is god not involved?

 

I suppose you could say there would be some involvement much in the same way our legislatures are involved with law making and they make a law that someone transgresses, the penalty of that law is enforced on the transgressee (or supposed to anyway - today? well, that's a diffrent box of fish) They however, aren't involved in the deciding of who actually did or did not transgress those laws - that's for the courts, etc - and they aren't invovled in the  actual meteing out of the penalty for that transgression.

Good question.

QD

[reaper]

it was clear what i was getting at

the bible clearly contradicts itself if evolution is true

why is the bible wrong?

[[BTF]DeathStalker]

it was clear what i was getting at

the bible clearly contradicts itself if evolution is true

why is the bible wrong?

Let me ask you one more time !!!

Can you please tell us where in the Original King James Bible your getting this.
I have NEVER seen this in the Original King James Version.

Are you getting this from some "off the wall" version or what ???

[reaper]

lol

are you saying the original king james bible doesn't contradict evolution and accepted science : /

it would be reasonable to say, the bible says this , so evolution isn't true
unless of course you don't think the bible contradicts evolution , and the likes

i'm pretty sure the "original king james version" utters the same fallacies

[[BTF]DeathStalker]

Dude you obviously don't know what you are talking about because you REFUSE to say what the passage it is that claims this.
If you know the bible says this . . .

We've asked you like 4 times !!!!
Will you PLEASE tell me what Book, Chapter, and Verse it is ?!?!?!?!?!?!

[reaper]

copied from a major christian website....
they note how the bible says the earth is about 6,000 years old.