Ye Religion Thread

[reaper]

explain how you know this. just because there are complex scientific findings on physics does not mean the supernatural exists. ever heard of quantum theory?

science KNOWS nothing, and is proposing nothing, that could make it impossible for there to be a higher power, if there theories were true

well even though i don't feel you can put an argument for a god soley in words, i tried my best.  also you think some pretty crazy things on acid.  i think you can play a numbers game to give good reason for a belief in a god of man.  so there's a lot of life, on acid i realized that life is special. that other conscience life that can contemplate the universe, woud not be as special as this one
---that's just a gumble of some random thoughts--- but you can take questions like this, and theories formed soley within the human mind, which if true would form an argument, and an argument where math is on your side for the existance of a god

[QuakeDuke]

this is something i have a real problem with. if you really look closely, this is nothing more than scare tactics. you honestly think God is not sophisticated enough to judge his creation on actions moreso than beliefs? life is not a 'contest' to see who got it right in the afterlife. anyways, what if you're wrong about the great JuJu at the bottom of the sea? we could all be wrong. and those who have thought it out and lack belief cannot 'fake' their belief to an all knowing god. isn't it possible that atheists get bonus points in heaven for being so courageously skeptical?

I see why you might have a problem with it. To say my friend would respond in that matter from fear is excusable as you really have no way of knowing how he came to make that decision. After two tours of combat, a purple heart and a year in a bamboo cage tends to incline me to believe he's not in the habit of making decisions based on the fear of  "what might happen".

Your statement about God's sophistication enough to judge his creation on actions more so than beliefs is exactly spot on. Given He is indeed sophisticated enough would entail our actions would have a great amount of bearing on that judgement don't you think? I would rather think if that were a given atheists wouldn't be getting bonus points for actions that would be opposed to those required by the judge. I know Judge Scott (our local judiciary - and one of the few that seems to have his head on straight) takes a dim view of those who don't follow his rules

I totally agree with you, life isn't a contest to see who got it right in the afterlife. Teachers who espouse that (intentionally or unintentionally) should spend more time in understanding where the contest truly lies. It lies in overcoming our intrinsic selfishness with all it's attendant problems to look beyond ourselves to help those who we are in a position to help - to aleviate suffering and pain as much as possible.  DISCLAIMER I'm going to make a statement that could be considered a religious teaching.   Contrary to how it's been interpreted and taught for lo, these many centuries, those are precisely the things Jesus taught. To look beyond ourselves to help others. The problem isn't with the teachings- it's how those who follow them - wait for it - behave.

I think science stands for itself and there is a huge difference between the supernatural and magic.

QD

[DaHanG]

this is something i have a real problem with. if you really look closely, this is nothing more than scare tactics. you honestly think God is not sophisticated enough to judge his creation on actions moreso than beliefs? life is not a 'contest' to see who got it right in the afterlife. anyways, what if you're wrong about the great JuJu at the bottom of the sea? we could all be wrong. and those who have thought it out and lack belief cannot 'fake' their belief to an all knowing god. isn't it possible that atheists get bonus points in heaven for being so courageously skeptical?

After two tours of combat, a purple heart and a year in a bamboo cage tends to incline me to believe he's not in the habit of making decisions based on the fear of  "what might happen".

you're comparing war to an eternity in hell, that's something i would never do.

based on what else you wrote you appear to be saying it's possible to be an atheist and get into heaven. my assumption is that most christians disagree with this. i don't really have a problem with being dead. it didn't bother me for billions of years before 1988. but during this life, the ignorance parading in religion does need to be addressed.

[paradisel0st]

Reaper, It makes me happy to know that you realized how special life is while taking a drug that alters chemicals in your brain. I hope this wasn't the time that you started to believe in a 'higher power'. I have to agree with DaHanG and must say it also bothers me greatly how religion seems to be nothing more than a scare tactic. I feel very lucky that I was able to grow up without religious teachings being pounded in my head. Many children are not so fortunate. This just retains the ignorance throughout generations. Of course if you're told something is factual your entire life you are going to think anyone who doesn't agree with your beliefs is simply crazy.

The bible is not a reliable source of information. Many people do seem to be very selective with what they actually follow from this book. As you saw earlier once Deathstalker was confronted with many verses from the old testament and teachings of Jesus he completely ignored the information presented to him. This would seem to be the trend. I'm not going to live my life thinking "well if I believe in God and he doesn't exist I'm not losing anything, but if he does and I don't follow his teachings I will spend an eternity in hell". I completely disagree with this way of thinking. Many people get so wound up and focused on the after life that they simple do not enjoy the pleasures of this life. Focusing on something that may or may not exist and wasting the time you actually do have seems incredibly foolish to me.

Well there's many more things I'd like to address, but I need to get back to work. Lunch break is over . I'm sure I will be posting more later on.

[DaHanG]

these screenshots were taken from a video on youtube that i found interesting.

here's a screenshot of what people believe in regarding the cosmos, morality, humanity, etc.:
[img=http://img353.imageshack.us/img353/6616/religionsow7.th.jpg]

here's a made up graph of what people believe made the dinosaurs extinct:
[img=http://img115.imageshack.us/img115/828/theoriesrq2.th.jpg]

this should help raise our consciousness.

 

[ni-ux]

The REAL problem with Christianity, as it is practiced today, is the same problem with other religions.

The motivation for striving to attain the ideal, is FEAR.

How can you think that you will be rewarded for your 'belief by default', by any deity?  "I may as well believe, it's better than the alternative", or "I don't want to go to hell, so I'll believe'.

Live a good life, and treat others with respect, because you want to, not because you're afraid of what happens when you die.

[haunted]

Very well said ni-ux. The belief by default applies to the vast majority of religion, but not quite all though.

[QuakeDuke]

you're comparing war to an eternity in hell, that's something i would never do.

To clarify, the comparison addressed your comment "if you really look closely, this is nothing more than scare tactics". When you have been through it, completely at the mercy of others whim's and fancies, no "reasonable" expectation for anything to change other than perhaps this'll be the day you die, you learn NOT to fear what might or might not happen. When my friend made the decision, it had nothing to do with scare tactics (fear of disobedience bringing an eternity in hell), having learned in whatsoever state he was in to be content.

based on what else you wrote you appear to be saying it's possible to be an atheist and get into heaven.

Sorry if I seemed to indicate that. All "religious" arguments aside, I will refer to my friend Judge Scott. He lays down rules and regs for his courtroom. You follow those rules and regs or you face sanctions - including the possiblity of imprisonment for whatever length of time he deems appropriate. Now, thing is, he really doesn't care whether you accept that or not, believe it or not, transgress in his court and you will reap the benefit of the transgression. So, using this logic as an example, and predicating for the sake of the argument there IS a God who is, as you stated, sophisticated enough to judge us by our actions, I would say the same would apply to atheists. Not believing in the existence, authority or rules of the presiding judge can be a very very uncomfortable occasion.

my assumption is that most christians disagree with this.

And for the most part your assumptions would be correct. There are, however, some christians who believe that in the end, ALL will be saved regardless, including Satan and all his fallen angels. This doctrine is known as the doctrine of ultimate reconciliation. This is a very seductive teaching as it would allow all to live however they wanted yet never have to account for any of their actions.... - hey - wait a minute... Kinda like today's society eh?

i don't really have a problem with being dead. it didn't bother me for billions of years before 1988.

How do you know you didn't have a problem with it? The whole concept of a "pre-life" (which would be necessary to have died) opens up the necessity of an "after-life" of some sort. 

but during this life, the ignorance parading in religion does need to be addressed.

Well said DaHanG. I will be the first to agree with you that ingorance of any kind needs to be addressed - it doesn't just parade around dressed up in religous trappings alone, it appears in many guises.

QD

[Whirlingdervish]

How do you know you didn't have a problem with it? The whole concept of a "pre-life" (which would be necessary to have died) opens up the necessity of an "after-life" of some sort.

my pre-life period consisted of me being 2 seperate haploid cells inside the reproductive organs of 2 seperate organisms.
maybe 25 years as an egg cell, and I'm betting less than a week as a sperm.

during this time, I was not capable of having a problem with anything due to my lack of cellular complexity.

The fact that technically part of me was alive prior to me existing as I am now, does not prove that there should also be an afterlife for me.

[quadz]

based on what else you wrote you appear to be saying it's possible to be an atheist and get into heaven.

Sorry if I seemed to indicate that. All "religious" arguments aside, I will refer to my friend Judge Scott. He lays down rules and regs for his courtroom. You follow those rules and regs or you face sanctions - including the possiblity of imprisonment for whatever length of time he deems appropriate. Now, thing is, he really doesn't care whether you accept that or not, believe it or not, transgress in his court and you will reap the benefit of the transgression. So, using this logic as an example, and predicating for the sake of the argument there IS a God who is, as you stated, sophisticated enough to judge us by our actions, I would say the same would apply to atheists. Not believing in the existence, authority or rules of the presiding judge can be a very very uncomfortable occasion.

For that analogy to work, Judge Scott would have to be invisible.

[DaHanG]

there's no reason for me to respond since the previous two posts POUNDED logic into QD, and my personal opinions don't differ much at all :>.

however,

you're comparing war to an eternity in hell, that's something i would never do.

To clarify, the comparison addressed your comment "if you really look closely, this is nothing more than scare tactics". When you have been through it, completely at the mercy of others whim's and fancies, no "reasonable" expectation for anything to change other than perhaps this'll be the day you die, you learn NOT to fear what might or might not happen. When my friend made the decision, it had nothing to do with scare tactics (fear of disobedience bringing an eternity in hell), having learned in whatsoever state he was in to be content.

if your friend truly believed that hell was a reasonable concept, but he did not fear it, then in my opinion he is insane or simply emotionless. hell is SO unlikely that it MUST be very extreme indeed, otherwise the deterrence effect of obedience would not be there. is an ETERNITY of torture really necessary? of course not, but is it the scariest outcome of suffering for bad things someone did during their life? you bet it is. i don't care what your personal view of hell is, but that is the mainstream concept i have come to understand - and that's how i see it.

 

[paradisel0st]

Ahhh ah ahh ah ah!

[QuakeDuke]

there's no reason for me to respond since the previous two posts POUNDED logic into QD

? huh ? are you refering to quadz & dervish's posts? In what way did they pound logic?

if your friend truly believed that hell was a reasonable concept, but he did not fear it, then in my opinion he is insane or simply emotionless

I guess I'm lost again. I was following the thread from the standpoint of the decision by my friend to follow the teachings of Christianity were not based on fear as he had learned to overcome fear through the things he had experienced. His conversion occurred approximately 8 years after the experiences I mentioned. Ok. NP.

Hell is SO unlikely that it MUST be very extreme indeed, otherwise the deterrence effect of obedience would not be there.

Unlikely or not it is very extreme indeed. Yet, contrary to how most  teachers of christianity who teach on hell, using the original texts I cannot find where Hell was created for man.

is it the scariest outcome of suffering for bad things someone did during their life? you bet it is. i don't care what your personal view of hell is, but that is the mainstream concept i have come to understand - and that's how i see it.

I respect your view. However,  I'm afraid the mainstream concept concerning hell is (as it often is in many things) in error.

Someone (I believe it was ni-ux)  mentioned in a previous post a large problem with most religions (not just christianity) today is they are based in fear - fear being used as the "motivator" for complience to doctrine. Unfortunatley, this is a true statement. However, again, those who follow all the tenets (not cherry pick the ones they want) of christianity will find christianity is not to be based on fear but on compassion and love. I am not saying people don't use fear to attempt people to conform to christianities teachings. I am saying it's NOT supposed to be that way. But, like sex, fear sells and mankind being mankind will use any means they can to achieve what they want.

Jesus did not preach fear. In fact, I can't find where Jesus ever forced anyone to do anything - he just taught and left it up to the hearer to either accept or reject his teachings (as do we in our church) no pressure, no fuss, no muss - here it is, take it or leave it. He was constantly challenging people to look within - to see outward compliance wasn't the trick, it was inward change. Even a cusory audit of his teachings will show that. The Old Testament has been quoted as "proof" Jesus is just as (pardon the expression) bloodthirsty as Jehovah is in the OT, yet in the so-called "sermon on the mount" we see Jesus teaching inward concepts challenging that very concept.

Now, I'm sure someone will whip out the old "cleansing of the temple" bit to "prove" Jesus "forced" someone to do something. Those who bore the brunt of that were those who were self-righteous and convinced had it all together, were better than anyone else and taking advantage of the poor - the "religious" of the day. Huh... reminds me of how societies morality has progressed (if you can call it that) in the last 50 years.

Rather than spend time "defending" that, the  question I would have to ask in this case would be why is it ok to use the bible to disprove the bible yet claim not to believe the bible? How can one use what one claims to discount as an authority to be an authority to disprove the authority of what one is using? That doesn't even make sense from any standpoint.

The greatest challenge I have faced as a pastor in the last 30 years is trying to get people to not allow all the baggage, preconceptions, misconceptions and prejudices we bring to the table keep us from objectively considering that just because man has screwed up religion (fear, compulsion,etc) doesn't in any way invalidate the need for or the truth of compassionate, loving religion. Just to discount it all, throw it all away, or as my granny used to say "throw the baby out with the bathwater" because of the abuses of those who decided to take advantage of people seems such a waste IMHO. Why do I keep on? I keep on because I believe in people. I believe that most people, with few exceptions, want to be loved, to love and live a peaceable life and the only lasting way to achieve this is through an inward - not outward - change.

Guys, it's been real & I've enjoyed it immensely.

Peace

QD

[DaHanG]

Hell is SO unlikely that it MUST be very extreme indeed, otherwise the deterrence effect of obedience would not be there.

Unlikely or not it is very extreme indeed. Yet, contrary to how most  teachers of christianity who teach on hell, using the original texts I cannot find where Hell was created for man.

how does this at all show that hell is not incredibly unlikely? i don't think how hell came to be is important, but the fact that it's supposedly there.

The greatest challenge I have faced as a pastor in the last 30 years is trying to get people to not allow all the baggage, preconceptions, misconceptions and prejudices we bring to the table keep us from objectively considering that just because man has screwed up religion (fear, compulsion,etc) doesn't in any way invalidate the need for or the truth of compassionate, loving religion. Just to discount it all, throw it all away, or as my granny used to say "throw the baby out with the bathwater" because of the abuses of those who decided to take advantage of people seems such a waste IMHO. Why do I keep on? I keep on because I believe in people. I believe that most people, with few exceptions, want to be loved, to love and live a peaceable life and the only lasting way to achieve this is through an inward - not outward - change.

the fact is, fear is a crucial element to religion because without fear of suffering after death, there is less incentive to convert. you basically say you want religion for love and morality. religion is supposed to help people in that department, but why believe in the supernatural rubbish? there's a reason why atheists are generally more educated with a higher IQ. not only is the concept of hell/all the supernatural nonsense in the bible so incredibly unlikely that it happened (virgin birth/ascention/etc. were all myths found in various cultures BEFORE the bible was written - just added to this sacred text), but if anything it only worsens one's morals. the bible treats women like property/condones homosexuality/many other things. it's better to be moral because it's the right thing to do, not because god told you to do so.

DHG

[reaper]

it's better to be moral because it's the right thing

if people werent scared of  what happened to them after they died.   there would be a lot of chaos going on, because millions more people would be out raping, and whatever else fit their needs, regardlless of wether being moral is right or wrong.

that's another thing you can say,and go either way with.  you can say,  people were "made" to be in fear of god because if they weren't, human life wouldn't exist nearly like it does now.
or you could say, it's just how we developed, how our society interacts etc..


to believe in the bible, many people want some evidence, as there is so much evidence to contadict it's teachings


to believe in the bible, you have to believe that man met god that long ago.  that's really where there is no evidence, and where the evidence is needed
especially considering the stockpile of evidence discredting the bible, and none to proove it's validity

but all the evidence is negated, if man met god, things bible becomes more likley at that point, even though i still think it would be a weird way for god to spread his word

considering all the people that wouldn't even know about the bible, but go to hell for whatever reason