Are Frags important?

[M^tster]

hehehe well put slikk.

Crusty=sloan? hmmmm 

[QuakeDuke]

as you said, you're "too old".  We feel for ya, though

Hey! Let's watch those "old" jokes, will ya? Usn' seniors are peeps too : )

QD

[[BTF]EyEsTrAiN]

I don't care if people camp or not, just more frags for me...campers are tasty! 

[11]

It's your frustration that you don't quite have the skill level to compete effectively, and have to, therefore, give in and spawn camp.

I doubt I could ever be one of the elite players you sometimes see, no matter how much I practised.  Some of those guys just stun me.  But I'm as good as a lot of the high-and-mighty whiners I encounter.  I win my share of maps, and sometimes it's not even from camping.

Those truly elite guys NEVER complain.  They just come to kill me, or they leave me be.  The crowd that gets pissy is mainly a couple of tiers down from elite... maybe my level or a bit better.

Can't quite remember if I've ever beaten you or not... I remember you being good.

[Punk_FAS]

Well, being in "Fragz Ain't Skillz" myself now for 6 years I think, I guess I can chime in here.  I think frags are more important/rewarding on an individual basis.  Doing anything/everything to have the highest frag count at the end of a map to me is not rewarding.  I like to challenge myself at least a little bit.  I don't like quad/invuln, BFG, camping, grenade spamming, and other super easy ways of wracking up mass frags without much effort.  I manage to not trivialize the game by resorting to the above powerups/tactics, but I also still manage to have quite a lot of fun. 

I think because I do my best not to resort to the above "crutches" that I've developed into a pretty darned good player.  Because without the above, what else can you do to get an edge over your opponent?  You have to practice and develop skills, etc.  There's countless #'s of other variables in the game though, like hardware, connection, scripts/paks (which I use none of tyvm), etc., that will give you an edge too.

So anyway, to me, the most rewarding thing in game is having challenging opponents, playing well against them, and yeah, sometimes, perhaps often, you will as a result have done the most FPH in the allotted time for a map, and "win" that map.  It's also cool to watch your skills/game rise when more challenging opponents are playing, you surprise yourself even sometimes.

Oh, and just as I'm scanning the servers, I notice a "crutch" player, or someone that comes to mind that does anything/everything to win.  That's Warkilla.  I'm not saying he's not entitled to play however he likes, it just seems, and I think I've talked to him briefly about this before, that to him winning is > all, no matter how it's done.  Not to say he sucks, but his skills, IMO, are inflated due to his abundance of "crutch" tactics.

[Slikkster]

Those truly elite guys NEVER complain. They just come to kill me, or they leave me be. The crowd that gets pissy is mainly a couple of tiers down from elite... maybe my level or a bit better.

Can't quite remember if I've ever beaten you or not... I remember you being good.

You're just giving up, man.  Read Punk's post above.  This guy can kick my butt 9 ways to Sunday, but I'm not going to give up and spawn camp because he's got better skills.  I'm going to try and raise my game level.  What he says is true; when you play better people, you can only get better in the process.  And trust me, there's ALWAYS someone better; I don't care who it is. 

And that's part of the issue with spawn campers.  People are playing to try and raise their skill level, and having someone just pop them as soon as the teleport into a pad is just bogus.  There's no humor in it, unless you just want to disrupt the game.   Is it still part of the game?  Sure.  Should people be banned for it?  You won't hear me advocating that.  But should people be called out for it?  Absolutely. 

You'll see people here refer to "Sloan", a notoriously bad camper.  But he never became a hated person because he was so easily taken out.  It was a running joke. 

If you want to "snipe" from a position that doesn't overlook a spawn site, that's one thing.  I'll still give ya a "camp" shout.  But it's a totally different animal than spawn camping. 

As far as me being "good", it's all relative.  I am far from "elite".  One rare occasions, I can beat an elite player on some given map.  But from a consistency standpoint, I'd put myself in the average range of the "regular" players at Xquake/TastySpleen.  I do think the "regular" players are good.  So, average is relative.  But I mean that many of them can win a given map at a given time.  The elites are another story.  Apple, Elysium, Questt, Punk and to a lesser extent, Chatt and a couple of others are more than likely to be at the top of the leader board consistently. 

Bottom line is, don't give up so easily.  Try running around, vs. spawn camping. 

To Punk:  absolutely agree with your comments, particularly about Warkilla.  He's definitely an "anything to win" type.  Pretty lame. 

[11]

All true.  But I'm not really trying to get better anymore.  I just play Q2 now when I feel like vegging out, kinda like watching TV, but more fun.

[Slikkster]

Well, then, that kind of sums it up.  Henceforth, we'll know you as the incorrigible vegging camp. 

[Art]

I always wondered why players get so worked up about being camp killed.

[Punk_FAS]

Actually, FFA I think generally just means "every man for himself", not everything goes, cheap shots, pad kills, etc. to win.  Let's compare it to the (albeit very fake) Royal Rumble style fights of the old WWF.  It was tons of guys in one ring, duking it out (just go with the idea, not the realism), now, when someone brought a chair in, or their championship belt, and smacked it over someone else's head, that was cheap/cheating.  In my opinion, and I'm certainly not the only one that feels this way, there are certain tactics that "cheapen" the game.  Maybe I take the skills that I've worked for in the game more seriously than you do yours.  I don't think of camping as cheating, or the other tactics as cheating, I just consider them cheap and my personal preference is to not use those tactics, as like I said, I feel they trivialize the game, and take away part of the challenge.  A challenge is a large factor in something having longevity.  When something is trivial, you're not gaining a reward from accomplishing this trivial challenge, such as aiming your crosshair at a spawn pad, and reacting with Mouse 1 when something fills it.  That takes very minimal skill, and I dont' feel a player should be rewarded with a victory if other players on the same server/map are actually duking it out, and out-maneuvring, out re-acting, and out-skilling other players.

And as far as the Mage Warehouse server, and the people you coin "elites" (probably because they earned their skill, and it's hard not to recognize, imply all these "skilled" players have some sorta "greater than thou" attitude by calling them "elites" if you wish).  These "skilled" players chose to play the game a certain way, and make it a challenge for them and others.  Just like tastyspleen can have their own relaxed rule set, other servers may impose a more strict one.  Mage banned init because he wasn't adhering to the ruleset of the server.  People come there to play other skilled players, get in duels, gain some skills, and have a good time.  His presence changed the dynamic of that map, and it was consistantly annoying to all the regulars, and the admin, so duh, after giving a warning and not complying, he was kicked/banned.  Which I'm sure he didn't lose any sleep over.

And Warkilla, c'mon..... you're way exaggerating his ping, he pings around 150 last I checked, yes, 50 ping is a lot better than 150, but 150 is quite manageable, you talk like he pings 350 or something.  And I stated that I feel his skills were inflated (which I still do) because of his disregard for what I consider to be "play nice" rules, etc.  I think I said he didn't suck either, he's not a bad player, but again, he uses the BFG way too much, like on dm4, his strat is to gather all the cells he can, hop into a room with people duking it out, and clean house.  I don't know about you, but I find it rather annoying to be in an intense duel with someone, and have someone come in, and declare the duel over with an over-powered weapon like the BFG.

Anyways, I'm merely expressing my opinion in a thread asking whether frags are important or not (which obvioiusly the answers will be opinion based).  I like to approach the game like you would a real life game, where you respect your opponents, and don't kick sand in their eyes because it makes winning easier.  And some of the tactics used that I described I find disrespectful to others enjoyment.

[[BTF]Gator]

My opinion has changed over time.  I used to be perfectly aligned with Punk's train of thought, but anymore, i think you should use anything on the map to your advantage.  Atleast when there are 30 people on it, and they are doing the same thing.  In a friendly one on one, my tactics are much softer, but when in a chaotic, busy fragfest, i say go for it all, they are going to do the same thing.  BFG, quad, chain, its all thier on the server, so you might as well use it.  i play the game for the splatter effect anyway, i love watching three people pop and explode at once.  It is normally just done on one map anyways, dm4.  It is the only map with heavy bfg useage because it is easy to get to.  Just relax and have fun, it is only for one map.  Who cares what the score is at the end, find enjoyment in the splatter.  i think it is funny when i am in a heavy duel with someone and a third party drops a bomb on us and takes us both out.  i take the responsibility for my death on me, always, not the second or third person involved.  Running is a tactic, and if you cant finish the battle on top, it better get exercised.  Usually it is a rocket blast or bfg shot in the middle of a heavy rail fight.  When that happens, i think to myself, i need to not only focus on my opponents sounds, but the sounds of others coming around the corners.  The crying of use of the bfg drives me nuts.  It is not the end all weapon.  It has as many weaknesses as strengths.   It is terribly slow to fire, just like the chain needs to spool up.  That gives you time to prepare your shot to kill them.  If they are coming around a corner with it ready to fire, you just need to be that much more ready.  In my play, i am always concious of having a corner to duck around to miss shots fired at me.  i try not to listen to just those i can see, but monitor my area to its fullest.

i do not care about campers, or anyones tactics.  i enjoy trying to learn to overcome them all.  i take each and every one of my deaths as MY OWN responsiblity, no matter what tactic was used to kill me.  That is my challenge.  To overcome my opponents no matter what their play style is.

The good guy tactics only work on a lightly populated server.  When you get more then eight people together, it is only human, someone is gonna start reaching for other weapons and styles of play.  It is foolish to not just be ready for it.

[Slikkster]

I think when all is said and done, it's clear that people play for different reasons.  Everyone's opinion is valid, in my view.  But opinions, as the saying goes, are like assholes.  Everyone's got one. 

As for Warkilla, his 150 ping doesn't factor in at all.  Art, you give that ping far too much credit.  He's on from Alaska, and it's no doubt a broadband connection.  I agree with Punk that it's quite manageable, and I wouldn't give him any kudos for that. 

If you really want to give someone credit for playing from a distance, give it to the guy "Rogal", a kid who plays from Poland.  He's got a 150 ping, and he can move as fast as anyone else I see on the map.    Where I do see ping make a difference is when it's in the <25ms range with a good player (i.e. Apple). 

I personally don't want to play a match and have some dope just sit there with a bfg.  What's the point of even playing?  Same with a spawn camper.   Warkilla does both, primarily the bfg deal.  It's pointless.  And it's unfortunate, because he IS a skilled player otherwise.  So, it's just cheap.

Just my views, but they ain't no better nor worse than yours.

[QuakeDuke]

I like to approach the game like you would a real life game, where you respect your opponents, and don't kick sand in their eyes because it makes winning easier.  And some of the tactics used that I described I find disrespectful to others enjoyment.

Although I'm not above shooting someone in the back, I'm glad to see when you mention real life you clarify it to be as a real life *game*. As far as respecting rules, opponents, etc, in a game, I can do that - though sometimes it's almost like something else takes over and I leave all good intentions behind - you know - a kinda flip wilson "the devil made me do it" type of thing     :)  .

However, if the we are talking about if the game is played as a real combat situation, I'm afraid there is no such thing as good sportsmanship. Guaranteed. To hold to that notion in a real life situation is a guaranteed fast track to a body bag. Ack! Enough!

*On with the GAME!* (it IS just a game isn't it?)

QD QuakeCon  '68

[Sgt. Dick]

[M^tster]

Lol! There is an old guy clan, they even have thier own skins.Its called "DOG".Short for Deadly Old Guys!Not sure if any are still around anymore.Or if they even have a site anymore.But I do have one of their skins.

Anyway, as far as all this camer, bfg using, chaingunners, I say do what you gotta do.BUT, that leaves you open to critisizim from the other players.But so what, like that has stopped Fishbone, who went from like a 150 ping to a 50 ping, and still he camps...and for the most part ignoring any comments about it.In the past I have said campers are lame..I still agree that a chronic camper..which is a 85-90% camping ratio is lame, but hey some people just cant hang with shooting you in the face...at least not when you see it coming.[PAD CAMPERS]

Now a days all I care about is de-camping these campers....so where would I be if there werent any?