XATRIX & XRAZY 2

[Debbie]

Exterminader closed the original topic, unfortunately.

I open this one because i think we had a productive topic going on that should be continued.

Quadz asked for our (argumented) input, so we can do that here.

Deb

[Debbie]

Yes i called some Xrazy maps "shitty maps" like i also called some Xatrix maps "shitty maps". And yes i hate the big downloads often.

But i also told Spawny several times when i did like a map that she made.

It is simple: I dont like every map, Xrazy or Xatrix. It's about taste.

Spawngirl not wanting the maps to be used on another server has only to do with her wish for having the power to do so, i think.

She claims that she made her maps as a contribution to the community, not for her own ego.

This combined with the shit she pulled people trough makes me think she lost the right to decide what to do with the maps, except for having them all deleted maybe.

I agree with Faderjok to try the third server with ALL maps available. See what happens and learn from it!

I cant talk for other people, but i bet only 1 server with all maps is good enough for most Xatrix players. And if not they will probably keep using the GOTO option, right?

Deb

[console]

The other thread was locked while I was replying (but my post went anyway because of moderator status.) So I'm copying the post here in case further discussion is wanted:

I think if enough people want her overrides on a third server, then you should put them there, because a majority vote would override her choice of not putting overrides on a third server

The difficulty as I see it is this issue touches on a policy toward intellectual property that would affect everyone who uploads original or derivative works to tastyspleen.

We don't currently have any contract that must be agreed to when files are uploaded to the q2-uploads account that says something like: BY UPLOADING YOUR CONTENT HERE YOU AGREE THAT TASTYSPLEEN HAS THE RIGHT TO USE SAID CONTENT IN WHATEVER DAMN WAY WE CHOOSE.

And, frankly, I don't think I would feel it would be appropriate if we were to try to institute some policy like that going forward.

Clearly spawngirl has no say over the maps themselves, as she is not the map author.

But I know she pretty nearly started from scratch on a lot of the AQ2 map overrides.

So while anyone can clearly submit their own overrides for these maps, it's not clear to me that tastyspleen is in the legal or ethical position to be able to use spawngirl's overrides "IN WHATEVER DAMN WAY WE CHOOSE".

And again, to do so, I feel, would probably be to set a bad precedent.


Regards,

[fdrjk]

While I stand by my decision of pooling all maps temporarily into one server, surely she will comply if its only done temporarily? But if she doesnt agree, shes just being stubborn 

[console]

She claims that she made her maps as a contribution to the community, not for her own ego.

I did attempt to make a point along those lines last night, however I don't think I communicated it well:

[04:30:48] <[XZ]Spawny> but we cant ignore that 3 people one of them never plays are saying that are the majority
[04:31:19] <quadz> i didn't ignore them, that's why i said the community would vote on maps for the new server ;P

What I was trying to say was, if the whole community will be able to vote on maps, then we can't say the result is only what three people want.

This combined with the shit she pulled people trough makes me think she lost the right to decide what to do with the maps, except for having them all deleted maybe.

I'm probably looking at it from the opposite side: If someone uploads an original work or a derivative work, the one thing tastyspleen absolutely has the right to do is delete it.

But if we choose not to delete it, I'm not sure we have the right to use it however we please.

(BTW, I'm not deliberately trying to be argumentative, just stating my views.)


Regards,

quadz

[fdrjk]

Chances are we woulnt even use ALL of them We would only use maps that the community votes on right?    Its not like we play ALL of the maps on xrazy

[Debbie]

The original request was to have a server where all maps would be available on.

If that is not possible it does not make sense to change anything does it?

Deb

[console]

The original request was to have a server where all maps would be available on.

If that is not possible it does not make sense to change anything does it?

If XATRIX goes back to 'classic maps', then a possible configuration for the third server would be: classic maps, plus all non-xrazy overrides.




As an aside, I wonder if it would be worth finding out what everyone's favorite xrazy maps are.  Because nothing is stopping anyone from making new overrides for their favorite maps, which could also go on the third server.

[fdrjk]

                       FAVORITE XRAZY MAPS! =)

xground3
xbwcity2
xbwcity
xlongfall
xmonster10
xfcityre
xassassin4       
xzoo
xdhouse
XBORDER!  =)
xcemal
xcountry
xahotel
xcampblud
xbitchweiser
xlaser_x7
xdot
xbeer
xsummerplace
xmirror
xneighborhood
xorchard
xspasmo6
xnine2
xhidden3

Zep maps:

xrota_nn
xbiopw1

Lets start cutting down shall we?

 

[peewee_RotA]

2 Points:

#1) Didn't spawn girl once start one of her famous flame-outs arguing that she hates Exterminader and doesn't want to have her maps associated with his?

#2) When submitting maps for public consumption, I'm pretty sure that you are obviously allowing anyone to serve them on any server for any reason. I've never seen a map with a readme included that limited what servers, or how many servers that the creator wanted them on. I'm also pretty certain that there are no legal or moral reasons why someone who creates free content inside of someone else's IP, using freeware tools, and containing other resources that he does not own, can specify how that content is used.

Being picky about where, how, and who uses your map is pretty contrary to the freely modifiable nature of the quake series. You may intend for your map to be played as an FFA, but it becomes popular in duel. I see no difference here, seeing how they are re-purposed maps anyway. If we are going to assume that Spawngirl doesn't want her overrides on a second server then we should have originally assumed that the AQ2 mappers didn't want their maps used in a different mod and never used them.

I have 2 maps on XRAZY. Zepp was very nice about asking for permission first before making overrides, however I think that I was very clear that nobody needs permission to override my maps. That's not an opinion that I hold on my own maps. That's an opinion I hold on putting yourself out there. Once you press that "submit" button with attachments then you've put yourself out into the realm of public opinion and should not be surprised when you are used in ways never intended. In fact you should be flattered.

[console]

When submitting maps for public consumption, I'm pretty sure that you are obviously allowing anyone to serve them on any server for any reason.

Indeed, I would assume so by default.  But on the other hand, if a map maker approached me and said, hey, I'm asking you to remove map xyzzy123.bsp, that I made, from your server(s)...

I might be disappointed, but, generally speaking, wouldn't I be expected to comply with their request?

I'm also pretty certain that there are no legal or moral reasons why someone who creates free content inside of someone else's IP, using freeware tools, and containing other resources that he does not own, can specify how that content is used.

I don't follow that logic.  If I use freeware tools like lex, yacc, autoconf, make, gcc, etc. to make a program, and that program runs inside of someone else's IP (say, the Linux kernel and userland libraries) ... I still retain rights to my program (in both source and binary form), regardless of the freeware tools used to produce it, edit it, compile it, and run it.  (Assuming said tools impose no restrictions of their own on their output.)

I don't see why it would be any different, editing an entity list with Notepad.  Yes, r1ch's override generator compiles the data, and the .override file is loaded and interpreted by r1q2... But the rights to the input data given to the override generator, as well as the output file produced, I have to presume are retained by the author.

Now, given that most overrides are--to varying degrees--derivative works rather than wholly original works, I'm not sure how the authorship rights get split.  I would suppose it's probably like source code, where there end up being two copyrights... One covering the original work and one covering the modifications to it...

If we are going to assume that Spawngirl doesn't want her overrides on a second server then we should have originally assumed that the AQ2 mappers didn't want their maps used in a different mod and never used them.

Again, I don't follow the logic.  We don't need to 'assume' spawngirl doesn't want her overrides on a second server: she has plainly stated it.  But on what grounds should we assume AQ2 mappers desire to impose similar restrictions?  As stated above, I'd think it makes sense to assume no such restrictions by default, unless contacted by (or otherwise specified by) the author.


Nevertheless, my very first response in IRC was along somewhat similar lines:

[03:01:52] <quadz> hi  ...  i can post that in the forums if you want, but i personally don't endorse such restrictions... How lame it would be if the map makers said, "you must only use my map for action quake, not for other mods like xatrix!"  Maps take longer to make than overrides, and we are using their maps for xatrix when they were designed for other mods.  Know what I mean?
[...]
[03:04:32] <[XZ]Spawny> "...using their maps for xatrix when they were designed for other mods.  Know what I mean?"
[03:04:34] <[XZ]Spawny> well
[03:04:52] <[XZ]Spawny> wizardEXT and other map makers are happy with my work
[...]
[03:10:25] <[XZ]Spawny> you said "you deserve a server" because my effort
[03:10:27] <[XZ]Spawny> =/
[03:10:38] <[XZ]Spawny> then i have rights over my effort
[03:10:48] <[XZ]Spawny> days and days editing sound for just one map
[03:11:04] <[XZ]Spawny> downloading an entire movie with 256 kbps just to take a sound
[03:11:10] <[XZ]Spawny> understand?
[03:12:02] <quadz> yes, that is what i pointed out earlier... maps take longer to make than overrides, and i'm glad the map makers did not say "you must only use my map for action quake!"  :)
[03:12:04] <quadz> but anyway :P
[03:12:51] <[XZ]Spawny> I understand your position
[...]
[03:14:31] <[XZ]Spawny> but
[03:15:16] <[XZ]Spawny> is nonsense to create a new server with all maps cloned
[03:15:39] <[XZ]Spawny> What is the grace of the existence of xrazy?
[...]
[03:18:58] <quadz> yes, i understand this (i have somewhat the same question, personally)


Regards,

quadz

[Debbie]

I see.

She did make those overrides to satisfy her own (big) ego and not for the quake 2 community.

If i was an override maker i would be happy if my maps were played on many servers.

[fdrjk]

[03:15:16] <[XZ]Spawny> is nonsense to create a new server with all maps cloned
[03:15:39] <[XZ]Spawny> What is the grace of the existence of xrazy?

[Zeppelin]

                       FAVORITE XRAZY MAPS! =)

xground3
xbwcity2
xbwcity
xlongfall
xmonster10
xfcityre
xassassin4       
xzoo
xdhouse
XBORDER!  =)
xcemal
xcountry
xahotel
xcampblud
xbitchweiser
xlaser_x7
xdot
xbeer
xsummerplace
xmirror
xneighborhood
xorchard
xspasmo6
xnine2
xhidden3

Zep maps:

xrota_nn
xbiopw1

Lets start cutting down shall we?

 

xbroken2
xmarics39
xztn2dm4
xcountry
xwfall2
xfacility3
xbloodspa

forgot those ones 

and about xzoo, its a nice map, but i see everybody moving to xatrix when the map begins.

[fdrjk]

                       FAVORITE XRAZY MAPS! =)

xground3
xbwcity2
xbwcity
xlongfall
xmonster10
xfcityre
xassassin4       
xzoo
xdhouse
XBORDER!  =)
xcemal
xcountry
xahotel
xcampblud
xbitchweiser
xlaser_x7
xdot
xbeer
xsummerplace
xmirror
xneighborhood
xorchard
xspasmo6
xnine2
xhidden3

Zep maps:

xrota_nn
xbiopw1

Lets start cutting down shall we?

 

xbroken2
xmarics39
xztn2dm4
xcountry
xwfall2
xfacility3
xbloodspa

forgot those ones 

and about xzoo, its a nice map, but i see everybody moving to xatrix when the map begins.

Always forget the marics maps ! 

Well surely we cant have ALL of these maps on a third server (IF spawny allows us ) Thats why we should cut the number down!