XATRIX & XRAZY 2

[Zeppelin]

xmidarena too, very good map!!

[fdrjk]

  Yes! Forgot that one too! I wonder who the awesome individual was who made that override!

[EXTERMINADER]

Well surely we cant have ALL of these maps on a third server (IF spawny allows us  ) Thats why we should cut the number down!

Huh?  I believe you misunderstood Quadz's point.  He stated that anyone could create their own override of any map.  Hence, you don't need approval from anyone who may have already created an override for a particular map, nor would you need to limit the number of maps YOU would like to have on this third server, that currently reside on XRAZY.  I think I just heard a can of worms opening. 
 

A couple of points...

So while anyone can clearly submit their own overrides for these maps...

What constitutes your "own" override? Removing all of the extra sounds from someone else's override?  Swapping weapon placement, like the rail guns on xborder? (teehee)  I think you see where I'm going with this... (as Quadz scrambles to disable downloads of overrides) 

My guess, and it's only a guess, is that a certain someone will be even MORE upset if a variation of their override were to show up on this third server, or better yet, if someone remakes the override and it becomes more popular than its predecessor.

This could get very entertaining...

EX

[peewee_RotA]

I'm also pretty certain that there are no legal or moral reasons why someone who creates free content inside of someone else's IP, using freeware tools, and containing other resources that he does not own, can specify how that content is used.

I don't follow that logic.  If I use freeware tools like lex, yacc, autoconf, make, gcc, etc. to make a program, and that program runs inside of someone else's IP (say, the Linux kernel and userland libraries) ... I still retain rights to my program (in both source and binary form), regardless of the freeware tools used to produce it, edit it, compile it, and run it.  (Assuming said tools impose no restrictions of their own on their output.)

I don't see why it would be any different, editing an entity list with Notepad.  Yes, r1ch's override generator compiles the data, and the .override file is loaded and interpreted by r1q2... But the rights to the input data given to the override generator, as well as the output file produced, I have to presume are retained by the author.

Now, given that most overrides are--to varying degrees--derivative works rather than wholly original works, I'm not sure how the authorship rights get split.  I would suppose it's probably like source code, where there end up being two copyrights... One covering the original work and one covering the modifications to it...

If we are going to assume that Spawngirl doesn't want her overrides on a second server then we should have originally assumed that the AQ2 mappers didn't want their maps used in a different mod and never used them.

Again, I don't follow the logic.  We don't need to 'assume' spawngirl doesn't want her overrides on a second server: she has plainly stated it.  But on what grounds should we assume AQ2 mappers desire to impose similar restrictions?  As stated above, I'd think it makes sense to assume no such restrictions by default, unless contacted by (or otherwise specified by) the author.

For the first point I would imagine it being more like updating a single feature of the firebug and specifying that you only want to allow users with XP media center to be allowed to use the firebug plugin. You don't have the right to specify who uses firebug. I guess you could branch it and tell people not to use your branch on anything but xp media center edition, but I think that that has fuzzy lines too as you are still using almost entirely someone else's work and telling other people how to use it.


The second point, you're certainly right. I was under the impression that she had not specified and that the 2 IRC lines you posted were grounds for assuming that she denied it rather than explicitly stating it.

[console]

So while anyone can clearly submit their own overrides for these maps...

What constitutes your "own" override? Removing all of the extra sounds from someone else's override?  Swapping weapon placement, like the rail guns on xborder? (teehee)  I think you see where I'm going with this... (as Quadz scrambles to disable downloads of overrides)

Yes, I certainly assumed things might head in this direction.

Downloading of overrides will not be disabled, however.  It's provided directly by the Q2 client.  I think most players who actively make overrides already know about "download maps/mapname.bsp.override".  That's built-in to Q2 and I wouldn't attempt to remove it.

As to modifying and re-deploying overrides, I don't know.  By analogy, if we treat overrides like source code, then, just because I modify the Q2 source, doesn't release me from the original id Software copyright and GPL distribution license.

If that's how it works, then downloading a spawngirl override and modifying it would not be sufficient.

But obviously if one starts with the entity list from the original .bsp file, then spawngirl is not involved.

. . . .

On the flipside, depending on how the original .bsp file was licensed, it's possible spawngirl would not have the right to limit distribution of her modifications of the original entity list.

Suppose for example the map author had released the map under a GPL-like license.  In such a case, spawngirl would be free to release her own modified versions (derivative works)... but she would not be legally^(*) allowed to restrict others from subsequently releasing modifications-of-her-modifications.  Because the rights granted by the original license cannot be rescinded.

So in that light it would seem to reduce to two questions:

  1. Did spawngirl make a given override 100% from scratch?  If so, she has the sole copyright.

  2. If her override is a modification of the original .bsp entity list, then does the license under which the original .bsp was released, allow restrictions to be placed on the distribution of derivative works?





_{(*) I am not a lawyer.}

[EXTERMINADER]

(*) I am not a lawyer.

But you DID sleep at a Holiday Inn Express last night... 

EX

[SquiSHeR]

Just stop discussing about which map is nicest and which map to have on which server (its not so important).

Just go on the server, play, and "mymap" your favorite map. Thats all.

[Whirlingdervish]

My guess, and it's only a guess, is that a certain someone will be even MORE upset if a variation of their override were to show up on this third server, or better yet, if someone remakes the override and it becomes more popular than its predecessor.

This is probably very true regardless of the origin of the "new" override.

Since it's pretty much a given that she's going to be snippy and upset over anything that she can and try to use it to conjure up sympathy for herself (as we can see already happening with the "you cant use my overrides nanananahnah!") you should just go into any assumption regarding that party knowing that "she'll get upset" is a given.

I'm of the opinion that we should just subtract her and her little feelings from both sides of the equation and ignore her wishes entirely.

Once it's freely distributed on the net for public consumption, you don't get to take it back, just like when she put up club pics of herself and wanted them all deleted from everywhere the second she wasn't liking the outcome.

I find the portrayal of what she did as "derivative work" insulting. The amount of effort expended to make a simple override (or even many) as compared to how much is needed to model a single decent map from scratch, texture, balance, and test it, is different by orders of magnitude.

to me it's like saying that if you scrawled a happy face over a Picasso painting with a crayon, you created a derivative work and are entitled to the same sort of protections to your "creation" as the painter himself.

In terms of a game like q2, its similar to saying that the server config you wrote to use with someone elses free mod is now your intellectual property to dick people around with, even after you've put it up for others to download for use with a free mod of an effectively free game.

I would be fucking PISSED if I'd released one of those maps for free use in whatever q2 server, and some random emo kid was holding up people from playing it on a server by claiming she has some sort of copyright on the insignificant footnote she added to the map in the form of an override.

If she'd made a retexture pak from someone elses work this wouldnt even be a discussion. Why is a map override different, and why should her 5 minutes of effort trump the HOURS some mapper put in to make a cool map from scratch for public use?

[console]

I find the portrayal of what she did as "derivative work" insulting. The amount of effort expended to make a simple override (or even many) as compared to how much is needed to model a single decent map from scratch, texture, balance, and test it, is different by orders of magnitude.

to me it's like saying that if you scrawled a happy face over a Picasso painting with a crayon, you created a derivative work and are entitled to the same sort of protections to your "creation" as the painter himself.

One analogy would be RiffTrax: http://www.rifftrax.com/

It takes orders of magnitude more time to make a movie, than it does for Mike Nelson and friends to make an audio commentary track intended to be downloaded and played along with the movie.  Nevertheless:

 - RiffTrax does not interfere with anyone's ability to enjoy the original movie
 - Mike Nelson & co. do retain copyright on their audio track

I would be fucking PISSED if I'd released one of those maps for free use in whatever q2 server, and some random emo kid was holding up people from playing it on a server by claiming she has some sort of copyright on the insignificant footnote she added to the map in the form of an override.

If she'd made a retexture pak from someone elses work this wouldnt even be a discussion. Why is a map override different, and why should her 5 minutes of effort trump the HOURS some mapper put in to make a cool map from scratch for public use?

Although I've made it clear to spawngirl I don't personally endorse the restrictions on the use of the overrides, I will take the Devil's Advocate position here, which is as follows:

She's not 'holding up people' from playing the original map.  And since her 5 minutes of effort are so insignificant, there's clearly no problem here.  Anyone can start with the original map and trivially produce their own override.


Regards,

quadz

[fdrjk]

I find the portrayal of what she did as "derivative work" insulting. The amount of effort expended to make a simple override (or even many) as compared to how much is needed to model a single decent map from scratch, texture, balance, and test it, is different by orders of magnitude.

to me it's like saying that if you scrawled a happy face over a Picasso painting with a crayon, you created a derivative work and are entitled to the same sort of protections to your "creation" as the painter himself.

One analogy would be RiffTrax: http://www.rifftrax.com/

It takes orders of magnitude more time to make a movie, than it does for Mike Nelson and friends to make an audio commentary track intended to be downloaded and played along with the movie.  Nevertheless:

 - RiffTrax does not interfere with anyone's ability to enjoy the original movie
 - Mike Nelson & co. do retain copyright on their audio track

I would be fucking PISSED if I'd released one of those maps for free use in whatever q2 server, and some random emo kid was holding up people from playing it on a server by claiming she has some sort of copyright on the insignificant footnote she added to the map in the form of an override.

If she'd made a retexture pak from someone elses work this wouldnt even be a discussion. Why is a map override different, and why should her 5 minutes of effour posts.
ort trump the HOURS some mapper put in to make a cool map from scratch for public use?

Although I've made it clear to spawngirl I don't personally endorse the restrictions on the use of the overrides, I will take the Devil's Advocate position here, which is as follows:

She's not 'holding up people' from playing the original map.  And since her 5 minutes of effort are so insignificant, there's clearly no problem here.  Anyone can start with the original map and trivially produce their own override.


Regards,

quadz

HOWEVER!

Even IF someone made two overrides of the same map, it would still be the SAME MAP. It has the phalanx, ionripper, traps, dualfire, everything in xatrix only placed differently, and im pretty sure people dont want multiple versions of the SAME MAP polluting mymap

ALSO!

Even IF spawny did override a map you were probably going to do, she puts TONS on effort into the override, about 2 days at the most! She puts creativity into her maps with cool sounds, good item placement, great atmosphere, so im pretty sure people would probably be happy with HER override.

 

[Debbie]

I dont understand this 3 server bullshit at all.

I still think that Quadz maybe fancies Spawngirl and therefor talks all kind of bullshit about how great xrazy is, and wants to open a third server - fragmenting the xatrix community even more - in stead of keeping it simple with only 1 server, like we all ask for in this thread.

Xrazy is not that special, there are only a few maps that we like to play. Spawngirl should act like an adult and let us enjoy her maps on any server we like.

Deb

[fdrjk]

While I DONT believe quadz gives spawn girl special treatment, I dont think quadz should let his feelings about the xrazy server having ONLY spawngirls overrides and no one elses get in the way of his judgement. Surely quadz should consider the peoples opinions about the xrazy server, as there are probably MORE than enough people who contradict his views about this situation. And I hope that quadz will do the right thing about this 

So in a way, I sorta agree with debbie. Spawn Girl needs to stop whining about it and be an adult about this, even if we have to do it for her 


Fader

[peewee_RotA]

I kind of thought that this thread was dead so I didn't post it the day that I got it, but spawn girl contacted me as well to express her wishes not to move the maps. I explained that I don't agree with her decision but that I'd provide another voice for her opinion on it.

She feels that the 3rd server is a bad idea because only a few people have asked for it, and that only a few people have asked to move the maps. She doesn't feel that of the players on the servers, that an overwhelming number support the decision.

I think that if a lot more of the regular xatrix players expressed interest in the idea then she might give in. But until then she's pretty confident that she has the right to say no.


I see some major trolling and flame potential in this thread going forward so I'd be a happy cow if that didn't happen and we stuck to random lame jokes, such as focusing on my backing down once again.

[Debbie]

I can only speak for myself. And i do NOT have the intention to troll.

I realy think 1 server is enough for the small xatrix community.

And i realy believe that spawngirl only refuses to move the maps because she doenst like Exti, Fader and me. (and many others). Its the only "power" she has left over Xrazy.

She should grow up and release the maps. And Quadz should put his feet back on the ground and realize that 1 server is great for everybody, except spawngirl, and easy to manage.

Deb

[fdrjk]

I see some major trolling and flame potential in this thread going forward so I'd be a happy cow if that didn't happen and we stuck to random lame jokes, such as focusing on my backing down once again.

 

There will be no trolling unless spawny decides to use her account again 

As for a third server, Not a lot of people support the idea, as spawny said. However, I would like to hear her input on one server with all maps