Ye Religion Thread

[reaper]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/There_are_no_atheists_in_foxholes

While I believe there are atheists in foxholes, I can't see atheists flocking to WW2 either, compared to the actual war anyway.  I can't say I blame them, but the thought process should make it very difficult for an atheist to commit himself/herself to that type of service.  While for a believer, life if focused on purpose with more after death, so going to war can be a different mindset for them.  Whether you think the outcome matters concering a connection to a higher power is another story.

Regarding prisoners believing in god.  Atheist or not, I don't see how you wouldn't expect them to be even crazier and more apt to commit crimes when they don't believe in god.  Similiar people exist:
"jeffery dahmer on god"

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IjW7bezdddE



As for the countries being atheist, being sucessful or unsucessful, being peaceful, etc.  I looked at the data, and I don't trust it for the reasons I mentioned earlier (is there a large percentage of atheists who would fear god if they killed someone?).  Also Japan is way up on the list, just a little while ago they were killing everyone.  These same people all converted, and conditions in Japan changed?  What conditions, how and why did they change?  In any event the data is quiet suspect, considering all the variables.

[haunted]

Hitler was catholic.. but all sects of Christianity deny this because whenever someone of christian faith does something wrong they're immediately not christian anymore. Opposed to someone of islamic or jewish faith(or an atheist) who would undoubtedly get labeled by their religion if they were in the same case.. This is one of the things I can't stand the most because so many people can't even see it going on.. because they were raised that way. It's so fucking lame, ignorant, and prejudice. Christianity in general has been a complete plague to mankind throughout history.

[quadz]

While I believe there are atheists in foxholes, I can't see atheists flocking to WW2 either, compared to the actual war anyway.  I can't say I blame them, but the thought process should make it very difficult for an atheist to commit himself/herself to that type of service.  While for a believer, life if focused on purpose with more after death, so going to war can be a different mindset for them.

Have you noticed what Christians tend to say when someone they care about had been sick and close to death, but manages to pull through and recover?  They are well-meaning of course, but the get-well blog will inevitably be full of posts like, "Our prayers were answered!"  "A true miracle!"  "What a wonderful God we serve!"  etc. etc. etc.

But never once do you see someone post, "Wow, she almost made it into heaven! So close!"

Know what I mean?

[haunted]

Reaper come on man. You're being ridiculous... so ridiculous that the sheer absurdity behind your arguments completely overshadow whatever point you were ever hinting at making. I truly mean no offense by that, you are completely able to make points and I want you to.. which is why I'm telling you.

Why on earth would you doubt the accuracy of those statistics? Dude... violence/crime and religion go hand-in-hand, and christianity is the most violent religion. and the statement "Also Japan is way up on the list, just a little while ago they were killing everyone." You really don't at least have a generalized idea about japan's history after WWII..?

Also I just want to reiterate that I'm not attacking anyone for their beliefs, and that I have stopped specifically addressing reaper now. I have trouble talking about religion with a lot of people. Usually it's older people refusing to refute any point that I make and their arguments being paralleled in legitimacy to the statement 'i'm right because I said so'. It's usually a battle of assumptions vs facts, in which seemingly the pro-religious peeps feel that their assumptions and beliefs are going toe-to-toe with scientific facts and certainties. THEY DO NOT! A lot of the debate going on in here isn't even debate, as i'm reading it. It's more so a few people trying to correct some of the typical misconceptions of an American Christian.. I mean saying that the earth is 6,000 years old, hitler was an atheist, acting like there's not a strong correlation between religion and violence, etc... has nothing to do with religious debate. They are just complete fallacies and when I read it I think man this guy is a little uneducated with his history and science. Maybe you guys can see where some of us are coming from now.

I am totally open to the possibility of God's existence. I find the concept of an after-life inconceivable, but I feel it to be normal and possible for there to be something else out there aside from the science behind it all. If you were to ask me if I think god exists, my honest answer would be most likely no, but the answer I use instead is I don't know. There are many things we do not know as humans, concepts totally unknown to us. Something that reaper kind of hints at usually, and he is completely right. HOWEVER, denying the things that we DO know is the worst possible thing you could do while trying to figure out the unknown.


edit: internet went out on me while I was modifying if you saw my fraction of a post.

[|iR|Focalor]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/There_are_no_atheists_in_foxholes

While I believe there are atheists in foxholes,

Indeed there ARE atheists in foxholes. Satanists, too. It's a religion recognized by the United States government and the military, and is covered in the Army Chaplains Handbook. http://www.churchofsatan.com/Pages/ChaplainsHandbook.html I don't think any Christian with a knowledge of what Satanism is would deny that Satanism could easily be referred to as "atheism times 10".

I can't see atheists flocking to WW2 either, compared to the actual war anyway.  I can't say I blame them, but the thought process should make it very difficult for an atheist to commit himself/herself to that type of service.  While for a believer, life if focused on purpose with more after death, so going to war can be a different mindset for them.  Whether you think the outcome matters concering a connection to a higher power is another story.

I don't see how you couldn't visualize an atheist wanting to serve active combat duty in the military. If you remember, the US was prompted to join the war for reasons of self-preservation after Japan bombed the piss out of Pearl Harbor. The instinct of self-preservation is not unique to ONLY the religious man.

[haunted]

And in regards to the atheists in foxholes thing...

So, in heightened times of stress and fear in which your brain literally functions differently(desperation to live, insanity, etc), 'most' atheists will begin to hope or believe in a higher power. Is that the point you're attempting to make reaper? And since the origin of this phrase came from war, do you not know anyone that still thinks they're in vietnam? War makes some people completely lose their mind yet you are drawing conclusions from it in regards to a totally different topic? Uhh..

And what about people like me? I am scared of dying, solely due to the fact that I feel that there probably isn't a God and definitely not an after-life. Seems like a pretty common belief for an atheist, although I am not one. So, why would an atheist start believing in a higher power if he/she fears that they die, when his/her fear of death primarily originated from the fact he/she honestly do not think that there is any god or any life after death?

[DaHanG]

As for the countries being atheist, being sucessful or unsucessful, being peaceful, etc.  I looked at the data, and I don't trust it for the reasons I mentioned earlier (is there a large percentage of atheists who would fear god if they killed someone?).  Also Japan is way up on the list, just a little while ago they were killing everyone.  These same people all converted, and conditions in Japan changed?  What conditions, how and why did they change?  In any event the data is quiet suspect, considering all the variables.

Priceless.

[haunted]

Eternity, I just noticed the dialogue between you and deft. He has a point with Christianity corrupting children. I wish you could see an HBO special I saw a few months ago. HBO reporters and cameramen filmed, followed, and interviewed a HUGE evangelical church.. I forget the location, but the church had over 10,000 members and it was the size of a small stadium. No one was aware of HBO's intent of the film, which was to expose how ridiculous they are, corrupting kids being ONE of the things...

A scene that is just impossible for me to forget is when over a 100 5-8 year old kids were participating in religious schooling, probably sunday school. They were watching cartoons that had significant biblical people riding dinosaurs, and a lady was telling the children specifically 'scientists always lie and say that the earth is billions of years old but we all know thats not true!! why else would jacob be riding a dinosaur?'....The children were really enjoying themselves while being corrupted with this ignorance, too.

[|iR|Focalor]

  DUH! Of course they rode dinosaurs, because they were faster than horses!

Sure, I find that idea to be pretty retarded, but that's not the main issue I'd personally pinpoint when talking about how modern Christianity "corrupts". The fundamental principle of the religion that I disagree with so strongly is the theme of forgiveness. You can commit any so-called sin (with the exception of blasphemy of the Holy Ghost, supposedly), and as long as you ask God for forgiveness, your sins are washed clean. The real world is exactly the opposite. If you commit a crime, you are punished. You can't simply apologize and ask for forgiveness and forgo the punishment. What does that teach anyone? In that case, I could believe in God and accept Jesus as my savior, kill everyone in my neighborhood with a hammer, and then pray for forgiveness and it would all be A-okay. And then someone suggests that merely believing in God would prevent people from doing horrible things to one another? The Old Testament covers the proper way to discipline children: whip their little asses when they do something wrong because it will teach them to obey. The Bible uses the analogy of how a shepherd would intentionally break the leg of a lamb that wandered away from the flock in order to teach it to not stray away again. Apparently the authors of the Old Testament were smart enough to know that consequences were the basis by which people learn the proper way to do anything. And then you fast-forward to the New Testament and it seems to sing nothing but endless praises for those who would forgive, turn the other cheek, and otherwise rob their enemies of the vital lesson which proper retribution would teach them. God says, "Vengeance is mine.", because he knows that it's the proper way to deal with enemies, and yet he shuns the existence of a such a trait within his followers like it's any other egregious sin. Vengeance is good enough for oh so holy him, but somehow makes ME unholy? Do as I say, not as I do, huh? What a great example the father is for his children. It's no wonder Lucifer "fell from grace" and was forced out of heaven along with his subordinates. They probably got sick of the bullshit and left of their own accord. And then of course he does a fine job creating man and allowing things to get fucked up. But that shouldn't surprise anyone knowing that he was inept enough to not be able to keep all his little ducks in one row in heaven. God is batting 0 for 2. Hallelujah, I ought to repent right now just so I can bear witness to how he'll manage to fuck up the afterlife too.

This is why I say that MAN created GOD in the likeness of MAN... because only a human could be just that fucking stupid.

[haunted]

Yeah focalor, I can list so many people like that. There's actually a wannabe-pastor around here that used to sell hard drugs for years then all of the sudden he was "born again"(born again might be the name of my band mocking the people around here lol) and now he's the best thing since sliced bread to all the holy-rollers. not to mention he's a condescending dickweed that is always trying to force his beliefs on others.

[haunted]

ps. I have just declared myself self-proclaimed winner of Ye Religion Thread.

[|iR|Focalor]

Yeah focalor, I can list so many people like that. There's actually a wannabe-pastor around here that used to sell hard drugs for years then all of the sudden he was "born again"(born again might be the name of my band mocking the people around here lol) and now he's the best thing since sliced bread to all the holy-rollers. not to mention he's a condescending dickweed that is always trying to force his beliefs on others.

Exactly.

Jesus might forgive you for not tithing 10% to the church for 20 years, but Uncle Sam expects his back taxes whether or not you apologize to him.

And by the way, Christian churches don't have to pay taxes in the United States. "Render unto Caesar what is Caesar's"??? Apparently Jesus paid his taxes. Convenient loopholes in the law should not override ones purported dogma.

[quadz]

And in regards to the atheists in foxholes thing...

So, in heightened times of stress and fear in which your brain literally functions differently(desperation to live, insanity, etc), 'most' atheists will begin to hope or believe in a higher power. Is that the point you're attempting to make reaper?

Oh.  When Reaper said:

While I believe there are atheists in foxholes, I can't see atheists flocking to WW2 either, compared to the actual war anyway.  I can't say I blame them, but the thought process should make it very difficult for an atheist to commit himself/herself to that type of service.  While for a believer, life if focused on purpose with more after death, so going to war can be a different mindset for them.

...I figured he was speculating that because 'a believer' might see him or herself as fighting for a transcendental cause, with promise of rewards in the afterlife, or at least, in general, someone believing that if he or she were killed in combat that experience would continue in the hereafter, ...  That this 'believer' would fear dying in a war less than an atheist, who values this short life on earth as his or her only possible continuity of experience.

(That's why I responded in a way to try to point out, as much as Christians talk up the uber-awesomness of Heaven, few seem particularly eager to "shuffle off this mortal coil.")

And what about people like me? I am scared of dying, solely due to the fact that I feel that there probably isn't a God and definitely not an after-life.

Just curious: Are you scared of death itself, or the process of dying?

I imagine we all probably regard the prospect of a painful death as something we'd decidedly like to avoid.  But, death itself?  Nonexistence can't be feared, because there's no 'self' to experience fear.  (Right?)  So the prospect of nonexistence doesn't bother me at all from a fear-standpoint.  I wasn't afraid before I was born, that I can recall.  The 'me' that didn't exist before I was born, physiologically ought not to exist after I'm dead, either.  Nothing to worry about there.

Dying painfully would suck, though... 


This looks quick,

[[BTF]Dizzy]

ps. I have just declared myself self-proclaimed winner of Ye Religion Thread.

And minister of the department of redundancy department!

[[BTF]Sigma]

ps. I have just declared myself self-proclaimed winner of Ye Religion Thread.

And minister of the department of redundancy department!

LOL Grammar Sniper