Ye Religion Thread

[DaHanG]

Eternity, people seem to think you're trolling because creation science is basically one of the biggest jokes in the intellectual arena. Yet here you are, promoting it.

This is the RELIGION thread....

And...?

[|iR|Focalor]

Eternity, people seem to think you're trolling because creation science is basically one of the biggest jokes in the intellectual arena. Yet here you are, promoting it.

This is the RELIGION thread....

Oh shit!
THE SHIP IS SINKING! MAN THE LIFE RAFTS! WOMEN AND CHILDREN FIRST! 

True, this is the religion thread. Unfortunately, the faithful have (yet again) fallen into the trap of attempting to use science to prove the supernatural. By it's definition, the supernatural and concepts requiring religious faith will never be absolute truths according to science. My advice would be to simply keep your own faith about your religious beliefs without trying to enter it into the realm of science. After all, if there were a way to scientifically prove that God existed, that would defeat the purpose of having faith at all, which is the cornerstone of the Christian religion according to the word of God.

[QwazyWabbit]

Creationist Scientificism springs from the belief on the part of Creationists that science or the theory of evolution is some kind of disproof of God or the creation. They attempt to prove Creation by inventing miraculous science in a vain attempt to show that the two concepts of science and faith (or religion) can be reconciled. They think it is possible to prove God scientifically. But even scientists and philosophers have abandoned that idea long ago.

Philosophers can simply say, "That's a question of faith".
Scientists can simply say, "We don't know." or "We don't have the knowledge yet." or "Science doesn't attempt to explain that." They know their limits.

Creationists attempt to say, "We can create miraculous scientific facts to force science to fit our concept of the world."

Even serious theologians are not so stupid. But then it took the Vatican 400 years to admit Galileo was right.

... and witches are made of wood and therefore float...

The faithful want proof of God. They seek to experience the mystical. This is why they see the virgin Mary in tree trunks and coffee stains. They have been seeking proof of God ever since Abraham first spoke with him. Jim Jones, David Koresh, Muhammad, and other "prophets" are the results of this need. And it's not just about the only true God either, they have to invent an entire hierarchy of angels and devils and demons to populate what should have been a universe of God and Man in eternal fellowship. This is merely an extension or remnant of polytheism.

No, I meant religion has the answers and science does not.

Of course it does! The stars are pinholes in the celestial sphere that let in the light of heaven. Everybody knows that.

Precisely.

"God said it, I believe it. That settles it."
This is not science. It is a logical fallacy.

Man seeks to control his surroundings. When a person can't control things he wants someone to look after him, to be in charge of things and looking out for his best interests. He wants Big Daddy to care about him. This is why we have the current mindset in this country to get Big Government looking out for us. If God's too busy let Obama take charge.

Religion and the religious hierarchy stems from the political necessity of having "rules to live by", mostly pretty sound ones for the most part. The Golden Rule being the founding principle. What better way for kings and tribal leaders to control their populations than saying "I didn't make these rules, god did. And if you don't obey, bad things are going to happen to you." It's not sufficient in their mindset to let personal responsibility control conduct, it has to stem from external control and ultimate power.

[reaper]

god is intrisic to the human race, that's why you go to court in the U.S and swear to god, and why "in god we trust" is on the dollar bill.  it's not simply some king thought it was a good idea to control people, god will be present everywhere, all showing the same common belief system.

[QwazyWabbit]

god is intrisic to the human race, that's why you go to court in the U.S and swear to god, and why "in god we trust" is on the dollar bill.  it's not simply some king thought it was a good idea to control people, god will be present everywhere, all showing the same common belief system.

Intrinsic.

Sense of mystery is intrinsic. Lightning was "mysterious" at one time. The rising and setting of the Sun was mystical at one time. Monotheism (one god) came much later in human history and in fact, most human religions are polytheistic. Monotheism was a radical new concept with Abraham... go read your bible.

If God were intrinsic there would never have been Zeus, Apollo, Hera, Thor, Odin, etc. The druids would not have had spirits in all natural things. If God were 'intrinsic' in Man, God would have had no competition and no reason to pronounce the first commandment.

Belief in God does not prove God.

The divine right of kings is an old concept in English law. U.S law descends from English law. It stands to reason that if God imparts rights to kings he can impart them to the common people. Ancient chieftains maintained control with the aid of mystical powers and shamans.

[|iR|Focalor]

god is intrisic to the human race, that's why you go to court in the U.S and swear to god, and why "in god we trust" is on the dollar bill.  it's not simply some king thought it was a good idea to control people, god will be present everywhere, all showing the same common belief system.

Actually...

King James commissioned the Venerable Bede and many other scholars to "translate" what was to become the current King James Version of the Holy Bible, which is what all other subsequent versions of the Old and New Testaments are molded from. Certain denominations and evolutions of Christianity essentially "re-worked" that version to fit their own idea of the proper way to honor God. The Jehovahs Witnesses reworded their translation to deny that Jesus Christ was the only son of God in the flesh. The Mormons, through the sacred plates given to Joseph Smith by God, have their own supplemental volume known as the Book of Mormon. For the longest time, the Catholic church strictly forbade its believers from reading the Holy Bible for themselves, they could only hear the word of God through the priest in Mass... although I guess the lack of public literacy at the time was also a contributing factor to that. The entire history of the Roman Catholic church is irrefutable evidence in and of itself that at least some are willing to take the word of God and attempt to devise a system of governing their subjects. Maybe things like this haven't occurred to EVERYONE, but when I look at history and the influence of religion upon it from a completely objective point of view, I cannot deny that it appears as though men have always tried to use religion as a means to rule the populace. Remaining objective about it all, I cannot deny that superstition, guilt, and fear are all very efficient tools for motivating others, and would be immensely powerful weapons in the hands of a ruling individual.

Swearing oaths on the Holy Bible and having some words printed on money does not mean that it is the true will of God for his presence to be felt throughout mankind. The name of the one God also appears in the Koran (although in another form), but that does not mean that God himself has any kind of true presence in the Islamic faith, especially according to modern Christianity.

As I have stated before, I believe that mankind has always created his gods in his own image and likeness to serve his own purposes. When one version of a god or THE God doesn't suit one group, they seem to form their own separate ideal version of that god, what they would refer to as "the TRUE God".

[reaper]

god is intrisic to humans, that's why people belief in god on islands, everywhere.

I doubt no matter how many books are written, or whatever attemps are made to propagate athiesm, it will all be in vein.  the people in power will still do things the same way they're done now.  since if people were athiests it would be devastating for civilization, and civilization wouldn't exist in such good form if people weren't religious.  take a look at jefferey dahlmer, and what the ghetto would be like if people were athiest.   I don't ever see the athiests becoming overwhelming in any force.

It would be possible that an alternative explanation will suffice for people, but I don't think many expect that coming, since there wouldn't be one, because god is it.

that said, personally I don't care if there is a god or not. I consider god's existence likely, although I don't discount the possibilty that there may be no higher power (god), but I don't think the "747 argument" is saying much:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ultimate_Boeing_747_gambit

Until you can provide a good answer for the foundation of life, and it's building blocks (why they are there, how they are there) , you are dealing with a huge gap in knowledge, and like it or not, god shouldn't be subject to complexities, while the universe should be.  the reason is, we do not understand god, but to almost all, I would even say 90 percent of non-believers, god is self-evident. science is simply not in the realm yet of a complete explanation, and you can choose to consider "this" an accident.

[|iR|Focalor]

Ancient chieftains maintained control with the aid of mystical powers and shamans.

Yep. The intelligent and ruthless will harness power for their own advantage wherever it may be found. As I said, superstition, guilt, and fear are very powerful means of motivating others.

[|iR|Focalor]

god is intrisic to humans, that's why people belief in god on islands, everywhere.

Fail.
God was not intrinsic to Native American indians before the white man beat it into them with the butts of their muskets.

[reaper]

Before the white devils came and killed the native americans, major tribes believed in a god they called "the great spirit".

[quadz]

god is intrisic to humans, that's why people belief in god on islands, everywhere.

geocentrism is intrisic to humans, that's why people belief the sun revolves around the earth, on islands, everywhere.

[QwazyWabbit]

Before the white devils came and killed the native americans, major tribes believed in a god they called "the great spirit".

No, they didn't. This is an invention of the American western movie based on prejudices of the white devils and their own cultural monotheism.

They had a polytheistic system of "spirits". The eagle, the dog, the bear, the mountain, the corn, the winds, this was a system very similar to the Druid system of beliefs. This is why eagles are sacred animals to some native americans and why there is no one hierarchy of spirits among the nations. The different nations had different spirits that manifested in different ways in each part of nature where those spirits dwelled and different ways of appealing to, or appeasing them. The was no consistent system or ritual among the nations. If God was the great spirit and The Truth was known to the native american nations then there would have been one system among them and not a diversity of systems.

[|iR|Focalor]

Before the white devils came and killed the native americans, major tribes believed in a god they called "the great spirit".

False. James Fennimore Cooper was not an expert on Native American religious practices. He was a fiction author.

Before the white devils came and killed the native americans, major tribes believed in a god they called "the great spirit".

No, they didn't. This is an invention of the American western movie based on prejudices of the white devils and their own cultural monotheism.

They had a polytheistic system of "spirits". The eagle, the dog, the bear, the mountain, the corn, the winds, this was a system very similar to the Druid system of beliefs. This is why eagles are sacred animals to the native americans. The different nations had different spirits that manifested in different ways in each part of nature where those spirits dwelled and different ways of appealing to, or appeasing them.

True. Their pantheon of deities were purely "pagan", not much different from the gods of the Roman Empire, the Egyptians, or the Summerians. Different animals and plants and elements were representative forms of particular gods which had their own individual attributes. They were not monotheistic. Believe it or not, the concept of monotheism was not first introduced by the hebrews, it was first recorded during the reign of Pharaoh Akhenatun when he shifted the main Egyptian religious beliefs away from the various forms of the god Amun-Ra to the god Aten.

[reaper]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Spirit

"
The Great Spirit is generally considered the nearest equivalent in description to the God of the main monotheistic religions (such as Judaism, Christianity and Islam).
"

it's quiet clear they're all generally the same.

[QwazyWabbit]

Wiki citation! Thread dead!

To quote from the very same source:
"However the Great Spirit differs in that his panentheistic nature is especially emphasized; he is embodied in everything. This more closely resembles the Hindu conception of the divine (Brahman), rather than the more transcendent conceptualization of God by the Abrahamic religions."