Ye Religion Thread

[Arm0r]

if there's no god, shouldn't there be much more evil than what's seen on earth?

 

Have you even paid attention to human history?

http://www.hawaii.edu/powerkills/SOD.CHAP2.HTM http://www.hawaii.edu/powerkills/SOD.TAB2.1A.GIF http://www.hawaii.edu/powerkills/SOD.TAB2.1B.GIF http://www.hawaii.edu/powerkills/MEGA.HTM The mass murder of their own citizens or those under their protection or control by emperors, kings, sultans, khans, presidents, governors, generals, and other such rulers is very much part of our history. In ancient times captured cities or towns would be pillaged and their inhabitants massacred; whole lands would be turned into regions of ruins and skeletons. Such genocide, massacre, and human slaughter; pillage, rape, and torture have been more common than war and revolution.

"Good" seems to be more the exception than the rule.

What was your question, again?

[Arm0r]

In case this wasn't covered, I wanted to share my position and thoughts on Astrology......



Astrology is bullshit. Astrology is bullshit. Astrology is bullshit.


Alright, can we all just agree that people can't cast spells and astrology is bullshit? While we're at it, let's stop using the phrase "I'm not religious, I'm spiritual." Every time I hear anyone call themselves "spiritual," it's just after they mention astrology and just before I land a flying elbow to their ovaries (as anyone who believes in astrology is undoubtedly a woman who needs to be punched in the crotch). Most people who read horoscopes also buy into other new age crap like tarot cards and self-healing.

Self healing? Self healing was perfected by Rambo in Rambo: First Blood when he stitched his arm shut after he cracked a kid's back while jumping off a cliff (and the only reason his arm split open was because he's so tough he wanted to make the bad guys think they had a chance, but yeah right.. it was like Rambo sent them all Christmas cards, but instead of cards it was murder).

The other thing that pisses me off about horoscopes is that some people make financial decisions based off them. Re-read that sentence a few times until the implications set in. Yes, there are mouth-breathers out there who literally believe clumps of rocks and dirt floating around pockets of gas have anything to do with their stocks and lottery winnings.




Ever notice how people ask you what sign you are and always say "I knew it" only after you tell them which one? That's because they're full of shit. It doesn't matter what sign you tell them you are, they'll always say "yeah, you're totally a [fill in asinine symbol], I can tell." No, you can't tell because you're an idiot. I hate it when people ask me what "sign" I am. You want to know what my sign is? Here:



Astrological signs are based off arbitrary Zodiac symbols drawn by people who also believed that light from stars came from vents on burning chariot wheels. I mean, do you people even read this shit? Here's a sample horoscope I found on some sap-magnet website:


Creative energy, especially involving writing or speaking, could be overflowing within you today. Ideas could be coming thick and fast, dear Leo. You might want to call some old friends and discuss your thoughts with them.

Creative energy? What the hell is creative energy? Also, notice how the tone is set by the use of "...dear Leo," as if some ancient sage (aka, fat "Lord of the Rings" nerd) was addressing a dear old friend (that would be you, the lonely house wife), at which point you would feel vindicated in spending $19.95 on your newly acquired Brazilian power crystal, just as an executive from a psychic hotline does a line of coke off a hooker's ass with the millions he's raked in from morons like you.

I especially like the "could be overflowing" part, which covers the astrologer's ass in the unlikely event that the horoscope was horse shit and has nothing to do with anyone or anything in the universe. Of course, that would constitute fraud, so thankfully we have the doctrine of uncertainty to protect psychics everywhere from malpractice lawsuits. Otherwise an entire industry of aging hippies and their clientele comprised of middle-class 16 year old girls and bored house wives trudging aimlessly from one rebellious new-age religion to the next would have to find a new hobby. Who knows? They might even get jobs.

[reaper]

"Good" seems to be more the exception than the rule.

What was your question, again?  glupek2

The standard answer, as I understand it, would be to dance around the problem by saying that God gave people free will, therefore any evil done by people is our own fault.  Which is interesting, because that would be just as true if you remove God from the equation entirely.

By the way, would you mind explaining your "perfect world" theory to us, the way you might explain it to the estimated 89,000,000 to slightly over 260,000,000 million men, women, and children who were victims of genocide, massacre, and human slaughter, pillage, rape, and torture throughout history?

Inquiring Minds Want to Know.

can i think the world is perfect, yet is incomprehensible?  sure i can, because i do!   god giving people free will seems like a fairly reasonable answer, if you were to think god exists, and wonder why there is evil.  if there is no governing force of evil, then it's evident there's going to much more evil than seen on earth.  when you have so many possibilities, and combinations of life (as well as things we don't understand)  your going to wind up with extreme evil.  something like, if you can think it, your thoughts exist/will exist/have existed.  so i guess you are asking me, how the world is perfect, yet there is genocide. could it be your glass isn't half full, or possibly the slaughtered women shouldn't think to highly of existence.  maybe the world is perfect, but the answer to this question is incomprehensible... oh well, i think human free will would shed some sense on the situation(that i believe in).  if god didn't exist, i don't think we would be communicating, and i'm not dancing around any question, i believe the answer is incomprehensible to man.

Ever notice how people ask you what sign you are and always say "I knew it" only after you tell them which one?

Why should there be more evil?

Scientifically, god invokes more problems than it solves. Perhaps Hawking thinks this.

i don't think stephen hawking can understand god, or anyone for that matter, so i don't know how god is creating problems.  unless you consider humans not understanding everything a problem

[reaper]

at which point you would feel vindicated in spending $19.95 on your newly acquired Brazilian power crystal, just as an executive from a psychic hotline does a line of coke off a hooker's ass with the millions he's raked in from morons like you.

LOL!
reminds of the main character's mother from "requiem for a dream". read the book : ), don't watch the movie.  and i think huebert selby's best book is "the demon".  basically some executive gets a lot of ass, until he gets married, then he goes crazy and lives a double life - starts stealing from cubicles, leaving dinner without paying, and pushing people into subway trains, awesome : )

[DaHanG]

Why should there be more evil?

Scientifically, god invokes more problems than it solves. Perhaps Hawking thinks this.

i don't think stephen hawking can understand god, or anyone for that matter, so i don't know how god is creating problems.  unless you consider humans not understanding everything a problem

God is creating a problem because you're left with the question "Why is there a god?" or "How did god come about?".

As I said, the definition of a word (being immune from a cause) has no influence on whether or not an entity exists.

[quadz]

can i think the world is perfect, yet is incomprehensible?

[reaper]

can i think the world is perfect, yet is incomprehensible?  sure i can, because i do!

I'm sorry, but I'm going to have to object to your use of the word "think" in this context.

i'm not going to get into semantics, but i don't think humans can understand certain things about the world, or god.
this doesn't mean someone can't reason that the world is perfect, and still believe we can't understand certain concepts - mostly the details.

Well, I'm sorry, but there's nothing evident to me about how many-possibilities-of-life mixed in with things-we-don't-understand, leads to extreme evil.

i forgive you, but the concept that there should be extreme evil without god is evident to me.

if you can think it, your thoughts exist/will exist/have existed"

As far as we know, thoughts exist as electro-chemical patterns in the brain.  So you're saying that if you can think it, then your thoughts existed at some point as brain patterns?  Isn't that self-evident?  And what do brain patterns have to do with lack of a governing force leading to extreme evil?

do you really think i'm literally speaking of thoughts existing.  surely you can understand i'm referring to the idea that so many possible things exist, which puts chance in favor of unthinkable evil existing.  of course this would be without some governing force.

Can you explain why you think some governing force is needed, beyond "lots of possibilities and stuff we don't understand?"

if you wanted good to prevail  you might want some sort of authority.

Huh?????????  If your glass is half-full of perfection, that's pretty damn imperfect.

what doesn't kill you only makes you stronger, I don't fully believe that, but you should get my point.

I have no idea what you are getting at in regard to the "slaughtered women".  Explain?

you were referring to evil on this planet, and asking what would i say to the victims.  maybe victims of evil don't view the world as perfect, can't say i blame them.

oh well, i think human free will would shed some sense on the situation(that i believe in).  if god didn't exist, i don't think we would be communicating,

If we're communicating using free will, what role does god play in our communication?

if he created the telephone to talk with, i think he plays a big role.  does he interfere when evolution takes place, i don't think so, but I believe god could, and he created everything, so i think god plays a vital role.

[reaper]

OK, so, given these initial ingredients:

[DaHanG]

That is funny indeed.

 

[quadz]

any thoughts

Mainly, I think your big-picture reasoning is both circular, and insulates you from empathizing with people who are truly suffering.

It seems you want there to be a god, and you want god to be perfect and good, and by that measure any evil in the world must by definition be a part of god's perfect plan. This circularity allows you to claim the world is perfect, because it must be perfect--albeit in some big-picture way that is unfortunately "incomprehensible" to us mere mortals.

This is retarded.



The problem is, as mere mortals, we can damn well comprehend the suffering that exists a million-fold, right this second on this planet all around us.

[reaper]

you can guess how i feel, but i don't wish there to be a god.  if there is no god, i'm seemingly not going to exist after i die.   the possibility of suffering after death isn't appealing,  so god doesn't help me sleep at night.  i'm more at ease with the idea nothing bad happens when i die.

Mainly, I think your big-picture reasoning is both circular, and insulates you from empathizing with people who are truly suffering.

i am totally capable, and do feel empathy for other human beings. 

The problem is, as mere mortals, we can damn well comprehend the suffering that exists a million-fold, right this second on this planet all around us.  There's nothing incomprehensible about that--and it's a long way from perfect.

everyone has their opinions

So I don't feel obligated to care about some hypothetical unknowable long-range big-picture plan from some entity that seems to have gone out of Its way to create a world (universe) that unfolds according to fundamental laws without external help anyway.

surely if you don't believe in god, i wouldn't expect you to concern yourself.  i believe god is all powerful, and we just don't know how he does things - so i don't think we truly understand the physical laws of the universe.  there not really laws, if god could mess around

Perfect schmerfect.  I'm not concerned with a hypothetical afterlife.  If god created us, then He gave us nervous systems.  What we feel is real, to us.  Therefore I care about the very comprehensible suffering of fellow mortals.

Any circular reasoning that would try to whitewash that by claiming it's all somehow perfect in god's eye, is not for me.

maybe your anger should be addressed to man , and not god, just a thought .  there's been very bad parts of my life, and very good parts, i came to the conclusion that life is perfect, and i do understand what other people experience

[quadz]

The problem is, as mere mortals, we can damn well comprehend the suffering that exists a million-fold, right this second on this planet all around us.

[DaHanG]

I'm sorry but the whole reaper perfect world thing is getting a bit out of hand. A very common atheistic argument (that obviously does not disprove God) is "I do not believe in a God because there is so much evil and suffering in the world." - "A perfect Being must not exist because our world is imperfect."

To have a theist somehow twist that into a point favoring his point of view is a bit like me saying "I bowled a perfect game. My score was 216."

[reaper]

Would you care to be more specific about which point you disagree with?

  1. We are mere mortals
  2. We can damn well comprehend the suffering of millions of other mortals this second around us
  3. There's nothing incomprehensible about mortals being able to comprehend the suffering of other mortals
  4. The fact that millions are horribly suffering at this moment means things are a long way from perfect

You try to dismiss all that as mere opinion; but I will challenge with reasoned debate on any or all points.

point number 4

That is sophistry and in effect mental masturbation.  Explain how that is in ANY WAY different from saying, "i don't think we truly understand the physical laws of the universe. there[sic] not really laws, if the Flying Spaghetti Monster could mess around."

Please explain the difference.  Becuase as far as I know THERE IS NONE.

many people believe in god, but not a flying spaghetti monster,  you do not see a difference?  if you don't that's fine, i think god exists, and the flying spaghetti monster does not.  in any event, god is a logical concept where a flying spaghetti monster is obviously ludacrist.

You never explained why life is "perfect" for everyone who is suffering horribly.

gotta take the good with the bad i guess

[DaHanG]

I'm curious as to how you could say this:

i  thought there's  a 51 percent chance god exists : ). i still feel the same.

So there's a 49% chance that the world is absolutely perfect as a result of an "accident"?