First, if there is a nativity scene on the courthouse square it doesn't mean they endorse Christianity, no more than our Halloween decorations on the square imply that the courthouse endorses witches and evil pumpkins. It's a religious holiday and they put up the appropriate decoration for whatever holiday it is. The point I was making is that some people pervert the separation of church and state amendment to have it taken down.
It can go both ways, if their was a Hale Satan day and 75% of the towns population celebrated that day and put up some pentagrams on the square, far be it for me to rune it for everyone else. THATS WHAT PISSES ME OFF. A very few people RUNE something for everyone else simply because they don't agree with it. And they will pervert the separation of church and state amendment to get it done.My question is why ????
Quote from: [BTF]DeathStalker on November 09, 2008, 09:55:35 PMIt can go both ways, if their was a Hale Satan day and 75% of the towns population celebrated that day and put up some pentagrams on the square, far be it for me to rune it for everyone else. THATS WHAT PISSES ME OFF. A very few people RUNE something for everyone else simply because they don't agree with it. And they will pervert the separation of church and state amendment to get it done.My question is why ????Separation of church and state has nothing to do with the citizens' majority opinion...It's not about RUNING it for everybody else.It is the principle that matters. The founding fathers would be opposed to religious imagery/promotion/celebration taking place on government institutions. If someone wants to celebrate their religious tradition, it's not hard to do it in a way that does not involve a government building.
Just a quick reply, I'll try to respond to more of your post later...Quote from: [BTF]DeathStalker on November 09, 2008, 09:55:35 PMFirst, if there is a nativity scene on the courthouse square it doesn't mean they endorse Christianity, no more than our Halloween decorations on the square imply that the courthouse endorses witches and evil pumpkins. It's a religious holiday and they put up the appropriate decoration for whatever holiday it is. The point I was making is that some people pervert the separation of church and state amendment to have it taken down.As long as other 'faiths' are also welcome, I don't see a problem.. Regards,
Separation of church and state has nothing to do with the citizens' majority opinion...It's not about RUNING it for everybody else.
It is the principle that matters.
The founding fathers would be opposed to religious imagery/promotion/celebration taking place on government institutions.
A preacher's kid for the largest sect of christianity around here was one of the 'several' that told me that btw...Oh and christianity does not get discriminated, however christianity discriminates all other denominations just by the principles behind it. Obviously I'm talking about how it's a requisite in christianity to impose your beliefs on others--or "SPREAD THE WORD".......this is just stupid and disrespectful to all around them, and coming from a group of people who act as if they exemplify all that is righteous in the world. As I have previously said, the term "good christian" disgusts me. There's never any bad christians though, of course not!! Because then they wouldn't be christian anymore once they've done something bad...unless of course they were later born again!! I will admit that I'm used to seeing some pretty stupid shit in regards to religion though. I will give a few examples: Self-proclaimed ministers with no schooling whatsoever requiring people in their congregations to give him 10% of their income, or tithing. Coincidentally, these already crooked bastards (self-proclaimed) attempt to recruit all of the rich people around here to join their groups. HA. Then, these same self-proclaimed crooks will walk down the main highway dragging a cross claiming that they're doing it for jesus. What a joke.. obviously it's just a walking advertisement. "Look at me, I'm holy, now give me 10%". Then there's the bullshit missionary trips. If you want to go to a different country and help people, sure, that's great....but do not go to some exotic beach destination with awesome surf (it's a surfing/fishing community here) just to spread the word and play in the water--ESPECIALLY when there's people in need anywhere from 10 minutes, to a few hours drive away that they've never even THOUGHT of helping. Oh and lets not forget straight up CHANGING the words of the bible.. There's a church around here who wholeheartedly believe that jesus did not turn water into wine, and he really turned water into grape juice...because ALCOHOL IS EVIL. I could go on, but I'll stop there.I'd say that the shit around here isn't even quite as retarded as the shit I see on the evangelical channels though. A month or 2 ago I was watching one of those psychos preach to hundreds of children with big pictures of biblical figures riding dinosaurs. Obviously the world is only 6,000 years old, which means that the dinosaurs had to have been around semi-recently(and of course biblical figures tamed and rode them)... after all, we all know that the fixed exponential decomposition rate of C-14 is bullshit.. lol.Look at the bright side though, Karl rove was able to harness the evangelical vote to win some elections for bush.
I don't see what it matters what THEY believed. Times have changed. They are dead. Dead men don't suffer the consequences of having outdated laws rooted in Christianity-infused moral dogma. But is anyone really suffering? A lot of people in this world are masochists, they love to be persecuted and inconvenienced so that they can bitch and complain about their unfair treatment. If you gave them exactly what they wanted, they'd still find something to complain about. They talk about the mandatory moment of silence in public schools as if someone was putting a gun their children's heads and screaming, "YOU MUST PRAY TO JESUS!" No, I don't want to have to look at a nativity scene, but I've seen piss-poor landscaping jobs and tons of JUNK sitting in some peoples front yards that I find far more visually appalling.
Quote from: DaHanG on November 10, 2008, 03:16:03 PMSeparation of church and state has nothing to do with the citizens' majority opinion...It's not about RUNING it for everybody else.Agreed, it's about keeping the government from making decisions based on what the "church wants" and vise-a-versa.So why are people perverting it's meaning just to get them takin down?Oh wait, you said:Quote from: DaHanG on November 10, 2008, 03:16:03 PMIt is the principle that matters.that principle is seriously flowed.
Quote from: DaHanG on November 10, 2008, 03:16:03 PMThe founding fathers would be opposed to religious imagery/promotion/celebration taking place on government institutions.Then why was this Religious Tradition made a National Holiday?By your reasoning we should just abolish Christmas all together and make a new National Holiday called "National Gift Giving Day".
"...all men were created equal..."It's been debated at length whether or not the founding fathers were Christians or not.
From including words like "created", I'd say it was a very good possibility...
As long as the other faiths are celebrating whatever the current national holiday is at the time, I have no problem either.
Quote from: [BTF]DeathStalker on November 10, 2008, 10:04:34 PMAs long as the other faiths are celebrating whatever the current national holiday is at the time, I have no problem either.We shouldn't have national religious holidays, should we?Edit: I'm trying to figure out what bothers me about this. Maybe it's mostly semantics. OK, here's part of it. There are a limited number of possible holidays. But national holidays apply to everyone... it's not like only people who identify as Christians get the day off on December 25.So from a secular point of view, there is a problem with saying that particular holiday, which applies to everyone, carries with it a restriction allowing only nativity scenes to be displayed during that time period.Regards,
But in all honesty, it's not that there "might" be a nativity scene on some random courthouse square, the original complaint was how some folks go out of their way to have it removed rather than being thankful they live in a country that allowes them to preach and practice any religion they want, or not be of "ANY" religion.
the original complaint was how some folks go out of their way to have it removed rather than being thankful they live in a country that allowes them to preach and practice any religion they want, or not be of "ANY" religion.
You both miss the point entirally, A Nativity scene is not a violation of seperation of church and state. Regaurdless what anyone says, or how they twist the ammendment to suite their needs.Now if the courthouse actually owns the scene itself AND specifiacally uses it to endorce christianity, then I can see where it may violate it, but to allow a local church to set one up certainly doesn't.
Besides, anyone that actually fights to have one removed does that only for the purpose of "just doing it".They aren't doing to be constitutonal correct, they're not doing it because it offends them oh so much.They're doing it be assholes. <<<<< Period