DM Server suggestion

[Frank Burnside]

Welcome to the community, and I can tell that you have the best of intentions but I haven't been able to stress enough that handgrenades are ingrained in this community like collapsed veins in amy whinehouse. You're making a pretty bold suggestion to ask us to set this aside for a new player. It's on par with coming out and saying "I think that spiked models should be considered legit!". Not a quick way to make friends.

And to give you a little word of warning that we learn from good old toxic monkey. If you complain about a weapon, people will use it more. I'm sure that the server logs show chaingun deaths doubling every time that he enters a server.

I think I remember Toxic Monkey from back in the day actually? Is he British by any chance? lol

I do appreciate I am new to TS so not really one to go around making demands. As for grenades, that really is just a small part of my suggestion... Limiting to 5 max makes little difference anyway. The other suggestions in there are the main things (No Quad, Invul, PS, BFG, 10 minute maps with Highscores board etc..)

I think this type of server would be quite popular on TS so I've just put the idea out there. As for learning to play, I'm not the best but too bad either

[Punk_FAS]

I don't see Mr. Burnside expecting these rules to take shape on the main TS DM server.  He seems to be suggesting such rules on the always-empty (as far as I'm aware) DM2 server.  As a long-term member of these forums, I wholeheartedly concur with his suggestions.

Nade spammers are easy to kill.  It's the fact that in a game with a lot of players running around, nade spamming (which by many people's standards is virtually skill-less) is a very competitive tactic.  As a player that denies myself (as much as possible) unnecessary power-ups like quad/invuln, in order to challenge myself, and actually make myself a better fragger, this rubs me the wrong way.

It would be lovely to have a DM/FFA server with a no-cheese rule set in place.  BFG = overpowered, Quad = overpowered, Power Armor = overpowered, Invuln = duh.  Being able to have all 4 of these items in use at the same time AND have better aim than everybody on the server too = WAY overpowered and does not make it that much fun for the other players on the server.

I know myself and FB aren't the only 2 players that would inhabit, and enjoy, such a server.

[[BTF] Reflex]

I tend to use other weps,  or at least chain down the other players and not him.

Funny to accidentally kill him with it,  and say sorry afterwards




I'm fine with DM the way it's setup now.    But,  I tend to not hang around the bottom of the lift on dm1...

as for the rest,  just how many power shields are there in 1-8?  I can only think of 1 (So guess not many people would miss it.)

Timelimit instead of fraglimit would be interesting,   anything to make dm4 go quicker.

Map voting,  I wouldnt mind seeing the 1-8's in the mymap as well as the customs that are there.

If anything,  up the player limit not lower it



Some of the tweaks could maybe be done/tried out on DM2



hf - I'll be on the servers either way

=p

[Barton]

I think q2dm8 is the only dm map 1-8 that has it.

[VaeVictis]

How about a DM server configuration that is similar to Fusters in the UK? 

1) No Quad
2) No Invul
3) No Powershield
4) No BFG
5) Maximum of 5 grenades in ammo (to prevent spam)
6) 10 minute map timelimit
7) All-time highscores displayed at the end of each map
Maps DM1 - DM8
9) Map voting options
10) Chase cam that shows who is chasing who and also a more zoomed out 3rd person view.
11) A 12 player limit

im not an ffa player and i honestly dont care, im just posting cause im bored...

1. learn to time quad and its no longer a disadvantage its just something to level the playing field and add to the fun... you can also do things like just spam rockets at quad and pick up like 4 frags as every idiot rushes it

2. invul is probably the most annoying powerup, however, all you need to do is knock em into some lava or just dont pick a fight with them at all and just ignore them and dont give them the chance to score a lot of frags

3. power shield isnt so much of a problem in an ffa with many players, if you are really worried about it, make it a point to pick up extra cells laying around the map and try to target the person with it enough times until its burned off

4. bfg is annoying, and for noobs... but easily avoided, figure out how it works and it will no longer cause you problems

5. grenades are just another part of the game, listen more carefully and avoid them more effectively, if some one is staying in a single spot spamming grenades that just makes them an easy target, take advantage of that fact

6. being a tdm player i dont mind a 10 minute time limit but for free for all it may seem too long to spend on a single map, just rolling through maps gives lower skilled players more of a chance instead of the higher skilled player just increasing their score gap exponentially, ffa is a casual thing and rolling through maps by frag limit is more of a pro than con because it mixes the action up to make it more fun for everyone

7. all time high scores might be interesting, but tastyspleen as stated does have stats tracking and that is much more detailed and useful

8. the whole point of the dm server is to play maps dm1-8, and to my knowledge thats what it does, if it is on another map (say rage or match1) then that means some one playing on the server has called that map, and honestly quadz only added very fun old school maps to mymap

9. there is already the mymap function, no need for a map voting system

10. spectating in ffa is kinda retarded in the first place if your in an ffa server hop in and try to enjoy the fraggin fun! only time i ever spectate is if im just hanging around to talk to some one, or perhaps checking if some one is wall hacking which works better with a closer chasecam

11. yes a smaller player limit can make some maps play better, but the big problem is that it keeps people from playing... i think that is the last thing anyone wants in a quake2 community, so what if there is too many people on a map? have a laugh at how ridiculous some of the kills get im for keeping a high player limit on any tastyspleen server just so people can play

One last note on grenade spam... if you think its a problem in quake2, try some quakeworld ffa 

[Frank Burnside]

Some nice points worth responding to. Although there is nothing to suggest there is isn't any room for an alternative DM server without some of the the above annoyances.

1) I have got a quad wav timer in my pak but it isn't bound. Not interested in using it. I mostly avoid the quad as it just isn't satisfying. Being killed by someone with it isn't either. Just my preference. =)

2) Shite powerup. No further comment.

3) PS isn't a serious issue, just slightly annoying when you've landed 4 clean rail shots on someone and they still wont die! Then they run off and go rack up on another pile of cells. Can be annoying when the server is quiet.

4) BFG is easily avoided on DM8 with open areas and ledges, not quite so easy on DM4 (most annoying) or DM6 in some of the more compact rooms.

5) Grenades are fine. No issues there. I just prefer 5 max ammo as it does limit needless ledge spam but not by much.

6) The current system is a 30 fraglimit. When the server is less busy it can actually last longer than 10 minutes. Also 10 minutes gives players a chance to get into the game if you have a dodgy start. You can also take timed map breaks and work out when your favourite map is coming around.

7) All-time scores are not exactly a sign of skill / ability but people like trying to break records and get their names on the boards. It keeps people coming back. An added incentive.

Voting is useful when there are only a few people on, players sometimes leave after DM3 so voting is a nice feature.

9) Mymap allows a player to choose a specified custom map. I'm sure other maps can be added but it doesn't give the other players any choice if they want to play that map.

10) Agree, but the TDM in eyes or 3rd person view is better. Just my opinion.

11) Agreed. But I wouldn't expect a server like this to be nearly as busy as the DM1 server. 12 makes the top 10 high scores more regularly attainable. If it does get consistantly very busy then raising the player limit can be looked at. Again, a debatable one. Just my suggestion.

I do remember nade spam in QW, especially crazy on DM4!

[Punk_FAS]

1. I don't want to learn to time the quad.  I can often beat players that are considered "pretty good" even when they themselves time the quad.  Why do I need another power-up to make playing even easier?  How is killing a player that is mostly trivial, without any other offensive power-ups, any more fun for me, or the person I frag, when I have quad?  I don't care what people say, with quad in use, there is NOT an even playing field.  "But you can time quad too".  That's not how the DM server works anyway.  It's usually just 1 or 2 players (often 1, *cough* Elysium, Defiant!, or *insert random good TDM player here*) that are timing the quad without anybody else to compete with for it.

2. Easier said than done, selectively knocking whoever you want to in the lava.  Sure, if you happen to be right there next to the invuln on dm3 when someone gets it, there's a chance you could rail them, rocket, or ssg them into the lava.  I do pretty well running away from those with invuln, but what about the other 13 players that don't?  They're all gonna eat it and give the invuln guy 30-seconds of no-risk frags.

3. PS hasn't been an issue at all on the TS DM server.  They do have a power screen? (much weaker version of PS), but I've never felt like it was that tough to kill someone that had it.

4. I know exactly how the BFG works, and it's still unavoidable in many cases.  This is especially true when you're fighting someone else that knows how it works.  Give me the BFG, catch me in an open area, or even a slightly cramped area, and see if I don't kill you (and the 2 newbies shooting blasters our way) 9 times out of 10 with it.  I use it occasionally, but I definitely don't run a cell collecting route, and I would love to not have to deal with it.

5. Yes, because it is so easy to avoid a constant stream of nades bouncing off the floor, ceiling, etc., AND avoid getting railed by that guy that's trying to rail you too.

6. I'm not too sure I like the 10 minute idea.  If there were 12 good players playing on a map, then it might be more enjoyable/challenging.  But if it's 10 minutes against average players, or just 2 or 3 players on one map?  I dunno.  10 minutes can definitely drag on on dm4 for example.

7. all-time scores doesn't excite me too much.  I just feel like that encourages cheesy tactics, camping chaingun on dm8 for example (picking off the 2 spawns, people jumping for RL, AND people getting rail), to go for a flashy win.  Consistently winning against good players over the span of many maps is more enjoyable/motivating for me.

8. I definitely prefer dm1-dm8.  There's a familiar flow with those maps that I like.  Earlier in my Quake 2 career, there were lots of dm1-dm8 only servers.  I liked that format.  If you want custom maps, there's mutant, or the vanilla map server, etc.

9. there is already the mymap function, no need for a map voting system.  - I'd prefer no mymap on such a server.

10. I like spectating sometime.  Can be quite entertaining to watch some newer players try to figure things out.  I watch better players too sometimes, and pick up ideas here and there.

11. yes a smaller player limit can make some maps play better, but the big problem is that it keeps people from playing... i think that is the last thing anyone wants in a quake2 community.  - Well, as long as it's a whole new server, that isn't currently being populated anyway, then I don't see a problem with having a few less player slots.  Make it 13 though perhaps, to have one slot for wallfly.  Or make it 16, and if it became a problem, then adjust perhaps.


I think this all comes down to having a more unforgiving DM/FFA server.  One where a newer player will flee back to the regular DM server or the vanilla server.  Minimize the cheese, maximize the challenge (without implementing artificial handicaps like "handicap" I think it's called).  I like a challenge, but don't want to be required to play a totally different format (TDM) to get such a thing.

[Frank Burnside]

Punk, it seems we have a generally good agreement on what a good DM server looks like. Ie:

1) No Quad
2) No Invul
3) No Powershield
4) No BFG
5) Maximum of 5 grenades in ammo
DM1 - DM8

The rest of this is definitely open to debate and just down to minor differences. I would be interested to hear what others think.   

The time limit could be set at either 5, 6 or 8 mins. It doesn't really matter. The predictability is nice and If the server is quiet, a shorter time limit is very welcome and avoids players mass quitting.

As for cheese-ball tactics to get on the high-score board. I think you'd be surprised how little that changes things. Don't forget you're already competing to get to 30 the fastest anyway, so there is no real difference with existing play. The board is just there for fun and keeps people coming back. Just going from experience, the highest scorers on this type of server are almost always achieved through quality play. The cheese-ball stuff (Quad timing with CG/SG etc...) has already been eliminated.

Also the actual end of map scores are still displayed as normal. You just get an extra few seconds to see the all time high-scores and that is welcome sometimes just grab a quick sip of drink.

Mymap is definitely good but allowing all players to have input on the next map is better I think. Voting requires at least 51% to agree to the map. I'm sure that % can be modified lower if needed at least to get some kind of consensus. Mymap only allows certain maps where voting allows all.

[Frank Burnside]

I forgot to add 16 player limit, again I'm easy on this also. I personally find 16 players very chaotic at times but some maps can accommodate 16 better than others (DM4/DD5/DM6/DM8) Maybe 14 is a good balance?

Either way I wouldn't expect this type of server to be very busy anyway but I may be wrong.

[Barton]

It's kind of stupid when the overall top scores are displayed longer then the top scores for a finished match, in OpenFFA. 

[Frank Burnside]

It's kind of stupid when the overall top scores are displayed longer then the top scores for a finished match, in OpenFFA. 

I wasn't even aware of that? Never seemed to be an issue. It last 3-5 seconds at most. Definately not something to worry about.. 

[Frank Burnside]

I've just come across the Frags Aint Skills server 74.54.186.236:27910. This doesn't seem get get much use.

This server could be made perfect by just locking the voting options down to maps only and lower the 20 minute timelimit to 8 mins. 

Also change the highcores from FPH to total frags. 

[reaper]

I think these changes would take some of the fun out of the mod, and improve the fun for others. I would keep everything the same, with maybe taking out invuln because you shouldn't have almost no chance of dying : ).

It wouldn't bother me to much if these rules were changed, but I camp about half the time i'm playing FFA just for fun, out of boredom etc.

[Slayer :D]

OK, I played Burnside and he rail camps rofl. I came onto q2dm8, and all you did was run around the upper catwalks railing me when I ran around to get the rail or rocket launcher or either chain. Now I really don't care about you doing that (denying players the weapons is part of the game), but I find it hypocritical to complain about players grenade camping when you do something that is significantly more difficult to dodge.

BTW, [TC]Granny used grenade launcher, not hand nades.

[Frank Burnside]

OK, I played Burnside and he rail camps rofl. I came onto q2dm8, and all you did was run around the upper catwalks railing me when I ran around to get the rail or rocket launcher or either chain. Now I really don't care about you doing that (denying players the weapons is part of the game), but I find it hypocritical to complain about players grenade camping when you do something that is significantly more difficult to dodge.

BTW, [TC]Granny used grenade launcher, not hand nades.

Oh come on lol. I've got a 120 ping on there. My rail effieciency is about 30% at best!