The solution for GM and other american automaker companies in trouble

[jägermonsta]

How did GM employees who worked steadily for years to earn their pensions, fuck up all on their own?

When did I mention it was their fault? Oh right... never.

Yeah! Lets dish out another 700 billion for people who fuck up on their own!
 

Right there.

It was in regards to the big cats of those companies. Not the guy sweeping the floor.

[ReCycled]

Do my posts just get ignored??Did I not just say basically this exact same thing above???

I was just agreeing with you, Troll, in my long-winded way.

As far as the CEO salaries not being an issue, GM in particular had a very large "upper management" level that kept the overhead costs very high. They were a class unto themselves - removed from the smelly blue collar workers under them.  Roger Smith was the epitome of this feudal system. As long as Sales were good, you could get away with this type of old-school structure. The Japanese were much leaner and more direct communicaters from management down to the workers.

Anyway I heard some spin doctor on TV today saying "lets not demonize GM for things that happened 25 years ago". As if this was just an unfortunate turn of events, rather than the responsibility of the company to get their ducks in order. And their pleas for financial bailout couldn't be at a worse time in the US  economy.
 

 

[Whirlingdervish]

For the record, I don't support using any of the supposed "economic bailout" money to keep companies with idiotic business models afloat, even the large banks and lenders, unless we (as a country) end up with an equally valued number of VOTING shares in their company as payment so that we have the ability to change that business model into a profitable one.

If they want our tax dollars, we should want the same thing that their other investors get:
A real ability to affect changes upon their business model, and by extension the future of our investment, by having some form of voting power.

Fuck the whole "they're Amercian Icons" angle.

I'd rather support actual Americans with my money, instead of the arbitrary commercial icons they supposedly need for some reason..

If we were to institute that rule upon the 700 billion dollar bailout package, I would also support an increase in welfare and unemployment spending, passed on a seperate bill, to help ease the hardship on their ex-workers that the collapse of any company who wasn't willing to give us control along with our investment, will undoubtedly cause.

[jägermonsta]

I'd rather support actual Americans with my money, instead of the arbitrary commercial icons they supposedly need for some reason..

If we were to institute that rule upon the 700 billion dollar bailout package, I would also support an increase in welfare and unemployment spending, passed on a seperate bill, to help ease the hardship on their ex-workers that the collapse of any company who wasn't willing to give us control along with our investment, will undoubtedly cause.

So lets start drilling... lots of jobs to be had for these people there. Oh wait... the precious environment. You libs can't make up your minds, who or what do you want to save here.

[Whirlingdervish]

Why should we deplete our own limitted oil reserves in the short term when we can afford to deplete those of our enemies and keep our own intact in the long term?

[jägermonsta]

Why should we deplete our own limitted oil reserves in the short term when we can afford to deplete those of our enemies and keep our own intact in the long term?

How long do you think the strong demand we have now to use oil as a energy resource is going to last? Do you actually think we have small amount of oil?

Why not begin the process now and stop funding our enemies.

[Whirlingdervish]

Because in the long term we can rape them back by selling them our refined gas, and our oil, at even steeper rates than they currently charge us and it will pauperize them unlike our people who can afford it.

Their people cannot afford our prices. Our people can afford their prices. We have a distinct advantage now that if played right will allow us to be the winners in the long run.


If we use up our oil by selling it off to the world (I might preach some liberal pussy shit, but I'm not naive enough to think it's all going to go into american gas tanks) before they use theirs up we will actually be at their mercy, unlike now when we just think we are because we dont like paying a lot for gas in our incredibly inefficient vehicles.

I don't see people in the rest of the world lowering their consumption of oil based fuels any faster than we are and that's because if anyone can afford to do it, it is us.

We hold the all the good cards in this game, and if we hold out and don't make it obvious that we do, they don't stand a chance of winning.

[FYATroll]

Heres the problem as I see it and quite frankly Im conflicted as to what to do.

Giving money to GM and Ford to get up off the mat seems to be in the best interest for the entire country. If these two companies fail it could lead to very difficult times FOR ALL OF US. However, where I'm torn is this: 1. We give them money and let them go on their own, therefore staying as capitalist as completely possible but run the very high risk of them f'king up. 2. We give them money with quite a few strings attached, i.e. fire the top management, absolutely positively start making a certain percentage (you come up with your own number) of cars hybrids and spend a certain percentage of your earnings (again, your own number) towards developing natural gas/bio-diesel/and wutever else you can think of cars. Basically, you give them a real simple time table to get their shit in order and make them have most if not all of their invantory fuel-effecient in say....5 years??(you know it, your own number works). We use govt. agencies to check in from time to time to make sure there heading in the right direction...all the while we are basically killing capitalism.

So its either A. Give them money and pray or B. Give them money and go socialist on their ass

I dont like either..but I'm afraid we must choose one, and sadly im leading towards option B

[[BTF]5antana]

Time to lighten the mood...

I have been preaching for years to invest in alternative energy, most notably my prototype "Afro Fuel" engine, which is powered by the person's natural swagger. Since I personify swagger, this energy would be nearly infinite, and power anything that it needs to power.

OK now to the actual argument. I didn't support the bailout because nothing financially good would happen out of it for most of the nation; why not just buy all the bad mortgages and dish out the rest in a lower-class tax cut? [for the record, my mom makes 18,000 a year, and we have been steadily cutting back on everything, so I believe out of personal experience this is necessary.]
So a bailout of big truck makers would make no sense to me either, when they could have been working on new technologies years ago.

Also it is really unfair to just have a high-school diploma and make 60,000 a year, when I have to work through college, basically building debt, and not make that when I graduate. [I plan on getting a doctorate in Computer Engineering, if anyone has base salary information for that please provide it for future reference.]

Let the discussion continue!

[FYATroll]

I understand you and anyone elses complaints about the bailout...but let me try and make this clear. I know it looks as though that initial bailout was just for the big wigs on wall street and those sitting on the boards of these investment banks....and basically thats what it is. However, if we did NOT bail them out ALL of us would pay..period. If the banks fail, we all fail..period..great depression 2 would be well on the way......so saving them saved us

[[BTF]5antana]

I understand you and anyone elses complaints about the bailout...but let me try and make this clear. I know it looks as though that initial bailout was just for the big wigs on wall street and those sitting on the boards of these investment banks....and basically thats what it is. However, if we did NOT bail them out ALL of us would pay..period. If the banks fail, we all fail..period..great depression 2 would be well on the way......so saving them saved us

The way I still see it is, the stocks are still dropping, so I still am lost on what the bailout exactly did fiscally for America.

I don't pay attention to the news too much, so again someone can fill me in on it

[[BTF]EyEsTrAiN]

Part of the problem must be the 17 million dollars per year they spend on Viagra. Admittedly, that is a drop in the bucket, but it makes you think about cost management.

 

Yeah, its an old article, but still valid to the discussion I think.

[[BTF]5antana]

lol viagra

leave it to EyEsTrAiN of all people to find something involving Wall Street and Viagra

[FYATroll]

I understand you and anyone elses complaints about the bailout...but let me try and make this clear. I know it looks as though that initial bailout was just for the big wigs on wall street and those sitting on the boards of these investment banks....and basically thats what it is. However, if we did NOT bail them out ALL of us would pay..period. If the banks fail, we all fail..period..great depression 2 would be well on the way......so saving them saved us

The way I still see it is, the stocks are still dropping, so I still am lost on what the bailout exactly did fiscally for America.

I don't pay attention to the news too much, so again someone can fill me in on it

The stock dropping is going to happen...these are bad companies and thats what happens when your a bad company. However, what was supposedly about to happen was this.....the major banks had there hands financially tied because of these mortgages.....To make sure banks had enough cash on hand incase there was a rush on them (i.e. the great depression) the govt. put in a law that forces banks to have so much capital on hand compared to how much they have invested......well, way to many of these banks and had WAY to much money invested in mortgages, bad ones. When the housing market hit the bricks, alot of these houses were being foreclosed. Well, what happens when no1 wants to buy the house??ITs worth 0. So now you have the govt. telling a bank that they dont have enough capital on hand according to the law and needed to raise some....the banks obviously can't raise it by selling some of their mortgages obviously, cause noone wants them...so what do they do???Well, they go to another bank and ask for a loan...however the other bank wont loan, because they are in the same situation. So what you had was banks, not loaning to eachother in fear of not having enough capital on hand which in turn would mean the govt. would come in and shut them down. So what was close to happening was most of our major banks were about to be taken out because they couldn't raise capital to cover their investments.

All that said, the bailout, originally, was designed to buy these mortgages from the banks to free up their hands so they could start lending again...however Paulson has recently said they will not be doing that and instead just directly injecting capital into the bank..which will probably be more effective.

Confusing, yes..i dont understand alot of it but to put into one short sentence: The banks had to much money invested in mortgages, the housing market crashed and no1 would buy their mortgages and that meant they couldn't lend to anyone in fear of not having enough money to cover their investment in these mortgages

BTW if you watch Jim Cramer this is what he means by an incredibly deflationary environment...its how the fed can keep lowering interest rates to crazy levels and yet you still see our dollar going up and gold going down...because the minute amount the banks were lending was far more consequential than the interest rate.

[HabibGoatAss]

Time to lighten the mood...

I have been preaching for years to invest in alternative energy, most notably my prototype "Afro Fuel" engine, which is powered by the person's natural swagger. Since I personify swagger, this energy would be nearly infinite, and power anything that it needs to power.

Yes - your Fro is supple and so smooth - I can feel the glow of sta-sof-fro from here - no napps - just pure sheen

hahaha

I like the idea - running on pure swagger