the ethics of quake 2 tourney, and quake 2 in general

[banes]

trip^k][l^: no offense
trip^k][l^: but you tourney guys play like assholes
trip^k][l^: like kill people when they typing
trip^k][l^: when they spawn
trip^k][l^: when they have no weapon
trip^k][l^: i just find it funny that you guys do that and then say DM has no skill

[daelmun]

Well, that's pretty intresting. I mean, from a gx'ers (i prefer the term tdm'er as it is more general than gx'ers that

[daelmun]

And as for voting options, is there a way to vote that he is wrong without submerging to your captialized bashing of newbies or to fuck dm'ers?

[TriP^K][L^]

Good post daelmun.

I suppose I assumed that tourney was something it wasn't. I thought DM was just FFA (where you are "lame" if you frag someone typing, on the spawnpad, lagging, ETC).....

I assumed tourney was about pure skill...and I don't mean jumping around the map collecting armor and swiping weapons so the other team has nothing and you can just frag them easily...sure that's "strategy"...but I think it takes away from the fun of the game and that's why I get pissed.

I guess it's cuz I never play the game to win, just to have fun...so when someone ruins a potentially awesome railgun fight by railing me when I'm weaponless, running toward the rail.....AND they have like 200 armor and health...lol....It just seems like its defeating the purpose of the game....

I think tourney should be set up with no armor, no megahealth, and weapons stay. To me, that's pure skill....

...don't get me wrong...I'm trying at this tourney thing...but it just doesn't seem satisfying at all..and it's not because I lose...it's because I think it's unbalanced.

...and don't even get me started on q2dm1!!! I don't get how people can play the same fucking map over and over? If anyone has played Starcraft, it's like everyone playing Big Game Hunters EVERY game....i mean...WTF? ....boring.

[chacal]

Well, that's pretty intresting. I mean, from a gx'ers (i prefer the term tdm'er as it is more general than gx'ers that  refer to  some sad old buggy mod) point of view the goal is to get as many frags as possible. TDM is very simple cause it is really all about that, the best way to not get fragged yourself is to frag the enemy/enemies keeping them unarmed/unarmored. And tdm'ers will use all tricks of the trade to reach that goal, and spawnraping is certainly a part of that tactic. And just face it, in order to spawnrape there is actually some skill involved, meaning learning the sound-patterns from each spawnspot on the map to quickly as possible determine your enemy's location and take him down before he get armed and armored up. Also a good railaim for instant kills is highly valued. Spawnraping in FFA is more about camping one specific spawnspot with a strong gun, thats not how it works in TDM. There you either control a area with several spawnspots (water area on dm1 for instance), or in 1v1 you spawnrape by locating the enemy before he gets a gun, you can't stand still on one spawnpad cause chances are so slim he will spawn there 10 times in  a row it's not worth it.

what happends when your opponnet respawns in front of you, do you need any skill to get that frag? I think it would be the same if you were respawn-campin on FFA. There's no skill involved on that, and i've SEEN THAT A LOT on tourney server.

but well. I think this thread is going to change something.  i mean, players are going to be fraggin' the same way (like if they're doing an 9 to 5 job), because as far I have been on that server, lookin those 'GOOD' players, you never see a 'ns' from them, or stuff like that maybe they would say 'hf' but I think it's more a 'ritual' than what HF really means. I don't know, it's kinda weird when you see people like that. It seems that they lost the main point of the game, have fun.

Instead of 'win-no-matter-how'

[daelmun]

Well, define what "pure skill" is please, I don't know for sure.

And I personally believe a good player is someone who can take advantage of the map, and items/weapons are certainly an important part of the maplayout. Another way to take advantage of the map is to learn the spawnspots, where they are located so you can keep track of the enemies as fast as possible after each spawn. Another way to take advantage of a map is to learn the sounds of it, not only the pickup sounds, but also the jump-sounds, the "silent areas" of the maps, etc. Then we got the jumps, a good player should be able to take advantage of the trickjumps on the maps, for reaching items and for unpredictable routes. Spamspots is another way to take advantage of the maplayout, determine where you can fire "controlling rockets" (aka spam) in order to inflict damage on a passing by enemy. Also, railangles (stadning in the window on dm1 sniping at someone jumping to mega, or at entrance to mega firing at someone going down to mega from lift). Then we got the choice of weapons in each area. Have you ever watched Thresh vs Billox on q2dm1? It's the first demo I ever saw, and it wasn't Thresh aim that impressed me, but how he took advantage of every gun. He used rocketlauncher in mid range combat, and mostly in megaroom/tight areas where it was easy to inflict splash damage, rail was used in water or on long range. Chain was used to finish off the last health. I mean, knowing what gun to use where, is also related to the layout of the map. Tight corridors scream for rl, and some areas are perfect for some nice nade working, and water/open areas is for rail. And lastly, how to cut players escaping routes, suprising them when they're on the run, and also where to lead your enemy when in combat (try to get them away from healths/lifts and into a dead end for instance). I could go on and on, like what areas are designed for defense, or what areas are suited for fast paced chase

The basic skills in q2 is aim with guns and dodging, but there are so many other skills you need to learn to master TDM in my eyes. That's why I love playing it, cause even with 150 ping I can beat on a lot of good players by using to the fullest the advantage other skills give me. If you remove health/armors/weapons/mapcontrol, all left is just aim/dodge skills.

Anyway, just my point of view, I'm not saying TDM is the mod for you, or for everyone, I just think that saying people playing TDM are playing like assholes are to drag it a little too far

[daelmun]

It all depends on who you play, some people are nice and polite, some people are assholes. You will find both in every mod I believe, it's not the mod that is responisble for the way people who plays it act. I used to say gl hf before, but now I just say hf, cause I hate playing people with good luck. Seriously And I mean it, have fun.

But how often to I see people say n1 or ns? Quite often actually, but I think people playing TDM may have higher standards for what a nice shot is. Cause when you get railed 20 times in one game, you realized that some shots are more routine shots, and people spamming n1 all the time is just as bad in my eyes, it takes the meaning of the word away. I say n1 whenever I can, but I try to say it with care. I think it's should be a good feeling connected to recieving a n1 from your opponent, not the feeling it is routine. The gl hf and gg is not the same, it is expected. Noone should expect getting a n1 thrown at them.

As for playing like machines:  I play a lot of FFA too (well, at least once or twice a day), and don't tell me everyone there are a jolly happy bunch of fraggers, there are a lot of people not talking at all or when they talk it's excuses or ridicule someone who frags them ("luck"), just playing trying really hard to win, and when they win the map they say something stupid like "gg... easy" and disconnects. I mean, it's all good with me, if people want to leave on a win, I won't say they are unpolite or have bad ethics, but at least in TDM you can ask for a rematch if you thought you had some bad luck or underperformed. But like I say, the assholes doesn't come with the mod or game.

I think you're talking about spawnraping in teams, cause in duels if someone spawns infront of you, you're lucky. But in teams, it's a common tactic to let your crosshair hover over closest spawn when you see the fragmessage at the top of you screen, just in case the enemy spawns there. Anticipating the spawn quickly turning the focus away from the nearby enemy to the closest spawnpad is not something a complete new player to the game can do right away. You need to be sure that it is in fact an emeny that spawns. But then again there are a lot of areas of the game where no skill is required, a lot is based on luck and just coincidences you have no control over. How many times have you not missed the guy you aimed at, but hit the guy peeking around the corner behind him. Or how many times have you not fired with gl and gotten a frag when you saw no enemies around.

I understand that people dislike getting spawnraped, and wants to have fun playing not so serious almost all the time. I do the same in FFA, I don't care if i get fragged all the time. But like I said in the thread banes started about 1v1 vs FFA, FFA and TDM are two completely different mods. I don't try to use all my TDM knowledge when playing FFA, cause I actually know people utterly dislikes it.

[Gene]

Dael, well read responses dude, gg

[banes]

I think tourney should be set up with no armor, no megahealth, and weapons stay. To me, that's pure skill....

its called rocket arena 2, this isnt a 1v1 ra2 tourney, this is full 1v1, with all the kinks and aspects of quake 2 put into it, map control, weapon control, aiming, dodging, using the advantage of different terrains and planes, to you pure skill is only dodging and aiming, but those are just the tools you use, however without knowing how to use your tools, youre screwed, map control and all the elements that come with it (the inverse as well of regaining control) are how you use that tool, you can have the sharpest sword in the world, but it woudlnt make a difference if you didnt know how to wield it, q2 1v1 is about skill AND strategy, not just one or the other, you need balance, which is what q2 1v1 brings, i dont see what is unbalanced about it, id like you to explain what you meant by that

chacal, its true if you got good aim, it takes little skill to rail someone who just spawned in front of you, thats considered a treat, you act like everytime you respawn youre in front of your opponent with a rail, that rarely happens in a 1v1, perhaps a 2v2 a lil more often, but as far as most spawns they are not in the immediate vicinity of railing, and so the skill is in tracking you

daelmun you asshole you fragged me before i could get a gun that one game! 
sorry, i tried editing my poll i dont know how to :\ just go for the caps man, all caps does the soul good every once in a while, haha its just a joke anyway, anyone who would be offended by it deserves to be offended by it for being such a dumb ass

about typing, i agree about your sewer typing situation, hes going to die anyway, he cant blame it just on typing, but i take it a little further than that, in dm or tdm if i find someone typing i usually kill them, why? because they did the rude thing of typing, its quite likely that i could have killed them had they not been typing, what the 'honorable' thing to do, would be to walk away, and lose a potential frag, i think thats ridiculous, because this moron decided to type in the middle of a match, I HAVE TO SACRIFICE A POSSIBLE POINT, b.s. i kill the mother fucker, why? because he typed, as far as im concerned hes given me permission to own his ass because whatever he was typing was worth one death, thats how i look at it, if i type and i get killed, well i deserved it, i dont type if im worried about losing a match, if i didnt wanna get type kiled, theres a simple remedy DONT TYPE, hell i remember a friend who used to exploit people because of their ethics, in q3, when you type you get that typing icon over your head, so what he would do is sometimes when he knew he was bound to die and he could hear the enemies footsteps, he would press t and get the icon which granted him sanctuary, and his opponent would leave, hes taking advantage of his opponents kindness true, but i see it as he is taking advantage of the absurdity of the rule, i dont kill laggers, because of course, no one chooses to lag, however people DO choose to type, typing should be banned from people in a match, then there would be no more bitching about type killers

gene nice post script, really people quit with the "have fun" bull shit, im getting tired of hearing it, you dont need to tell us, its rather obvious that we all play q2 because we love it and have fun doing so, for gods sakes its 8 years old, if it wasnt fun for us we obviously would be playing another game or doing something better, get over it people we have fun, and we dont have to spam rockets and spare typers and let someone grab a weapon first in order to have fun

[daelmun]

And the term having fun is also very hard to standardize, you have fun on your terms but that doesn't mean your way of having fun apply to everyone else. I know quite a few people who don't enjoy a non-serious game at all, and rather leave than play someone not trying their best, and think that is a waste of time. Who am I to judge over what they find fun. Noone enjoys getting spawnraped, but it is quite a good feeling to lock down the map completely against good players. And it goes either way, sometimes you are the target for it, other times you are the one doing it. And btw, spawnraping a player who is not near your skillevel feels just bad, it is not fun for anyone.

What is fun for me: personally I find it very satisfying to constantly improve my gameplay in every way possible, it's not fun in the way I laugh when I get better, but it's a good feeling. I also enjoy a good game where I play an equal if not better opponent and have a close game. It's not all about winning, even if you enjoy the competitive twist to the game, it's also the feeling you get when you feel youre competing in every aspect of the game, not just a matter of who got the lowest ping/best aim. I also take great pleasure in the small things i the games, funny teamkills, lucky spam kills, squishing, suicides, bad/good luck, nice rails, air rockets, good jumps. There are so many things I appreciate, and if you call me a machine in the way I play that is your call, but I promise you I enjoy it a lot

And once again, as Gene said too, there are different mods, and people need to find the mod that suits their style of play the best. And not neccessarily play only that one mod, play different mods to get different experiences. I think when people refer to TDM as the mod with the most skill, the point is that TDM'ers have the best basics skills needed to be good at most of the mods. They have the aim/movement/ understanding of the game needed to adjust to other mods. Like for instance the ongoing battle on who is better ra2 players or tdm players, I think that it is easier for a TDM player to adjust to the ra2 mod than the other way around. And in TDM you learn what teamplay is all about, you can play FFA for all your life without getting to know how to be a good teamplayer.

Anyway, play for fun, once you don't have fun don't play.

[daelmun]

FFA has it skills too, but the skills needed for FFA are a little different than the ones needed in TDM. Aside from the basic skills of aim/dodging.

Read this thread to read some more about that:

[adrenal1ne]

how about who cares what the fuck some idiot thinks :D all jokes aside..who cares just play

[banes]

how about who cares what the fuck some idiot thinks :D

thats why we love him 

[{TNP}Dukie]

I assumed tourney was about pure skill...and I don't mean jumping around the map collecting armor and swiping weapons so the other team has nothing and you can just frag them easily...sure that's "strategy"...but I think it takes away from the fun of the game and that's why I get pissed.


I think tourney should be set up with no armor, no megahealth, and weapons stay. To me, that's pure skill....

I disagree because then skill boils down to only ping and how accurate you are with the rail with that ping :p

[Slikkster]

I don't feel anyone should be locked in to anyone else's conception of what comprises a "real" tourney, a "real" this or that mod style, etc.   I agree with Trip in the sense that it would be pretty easy to have different Tourney round-robins.  Someone somewhere arbitrarily decided what the rules were for this or that style of play.  Don't get locked in.   There's no Quake diety that will frown upon anyone (although there are some mere mortals who apparently think they are dieties, but that's another matter, lol) for having a "modified" tournament where this or that might not be available as far as weapons, powerups, health, etc.  are concerned.   I think the real diversity of skill sets will be more apparent when various styles of tournaments are played. 

There's singles and doubles in tennis, various types of golf tournaments, etc.  This first tournament appears to be following along traditional lines, and that's cool.  For the future, it might be fun to broaden it out a bit...change the game, and see who adapts.  I'm pretty sure there will be some that will do well in any kind of tournament.  But you may very well find some surprises when the rules are changed up, and different strategies must be employed to adapt.