Ye Religion Thread

[quadz]

The options would be part of the creation, it's best not to look into them for the sake of looking into them.

Suggested translation: Fearing possibly committing thoughtcrime and thereby angering the invisible overlord, I have substituted oatmeal where my curiosity should be.

The obvious is the higher power is in control.

Keeping in mind quantum mechanics allows a 'flat' universe like ours, having zero total energy, to begin from nothing
quantum mechanics allows a 'flat' universe like ours, having zero total energy, to begin from nothing, name one "obvious" thing that would be different about our universe if no such higher power existed.

[|iR|Focalor]

HAHA! No, my point was that one MUST accept when good things happen AND when bad things happen because you can't deny some reality or event into nonexistence. Look at the neo-nazi/white supremacist movements. They love to preach that the holocaust never happened even though there are photographs of the prison camps after they were discovered, and you can still visit places like Auschwitz and see the huge ball of twisted metal that were the eyeglass frames of imprisoned and liquidated jews, and you can also still see the huge pile of female human hair from where they shaved their heads and sometimes made coats from the hair... which is not only kinda gross to think about, but a little odd seeing as how they thought jews were so vile yet they'd gladly wear garments made from their hair. Anyway,... anyone with any kind of a reasonable intelligence knows that people who deny that the holocaust ever happened are just fools who only do so because it fits their desired agenda.

I'm sure you'd agree with this. Be that as it may, I'm still a little perplexed as to what you mean by "it's best not to look into them for the sake of looking into them." Are you suggesting that it's unwise to question why bad things sometimes happen to good people? I see no viable reason why it would be unwise to do so other than the fact that it may cause someone to lose their faith in God or the "creator" (by whatever name someone may call it). That seems a little too conveniently in favor of religious dogma. If religious principles such as "God is just" and "everything that happens is part of God's bigger picture" are absolute truth, then what could be the harm in examining events and trying to discover what the reasons are for such events occurring. From everything else found in the holy bible, it's safe to say that:

a.) God is holy
b.) God is truth
c.) God is omnipresent

Therefore, it could be said that: God is truth, and truth is everywhere.

If it is a disciple of God's task to live a holy and truthful existence as the bible commands, it seems to me that it's practitioners should be the first and foremost in wanting to discover what makes "creation" really function and how to manipulate the creators physical world to benefit man. That's the main goal of science... and yet for all of the amazing truths and discoveries recorded so far, science and the scientists committed to it's furtherance have only moved farther and farther away from supporting the idea of creationism.

The law convicts guilty criminals based on evidence. It hasn't always been that way. They used to burn "witches" and "false prophets" based solely on the opinions of those held in high regard in their communities. In retrospect, we clearly see the egregious fallacy of such actions. This is why I can't bring myself to support or believe in what I consider to be mythical fairy tales found in the bible. If I'm on a jury to determine what the bible is, all the evidence I've seen against it is quite convincing. All the evidence I've seen FOR it can only be considered hearsay.

[reaper]

I say "it's best not to look into them for the sake of looking into them" because you already have the answers and it's going to be a distraction.  The obvious, common sense answer, will slip by in some techno babble.  Besides the placebo effect is and will continue to be very important, whether a god exists or not.   I consider it a saving grace, so why not consider the obvious.. well most people do.  So I am for questioning anything, I just consider some questioning pointless, and a distraction.

The evidence for the bible is the word of god derived from it.  Essentially it's self evident truths boiled into stories.

Keeping in mind quantum mechanics allows a 'flat' universe like ours, having zero total energy, to begin from nothing, name one "obvious" thing that would be different about our universe if no such higher power existed.

The universe should also die of heat death based on current understanding, which is incompatible with an infinite universe (with no multi-verse).  There's also more mass than calculated from current theories, drumming up this anti-matter business.  Pretty good indication they don't know what's going on.  You are looking for answers in the wrong place, not everything is testable.  You will also find no harmony, no explanation for the harmony; other than, it has to be with this way because we can observe it.  Don't believe in accidents, it's unlikely.  What you will find if you take god out of the equation, is people ready to kill if they can get away with it, with no fear.

[QwazyWabbit]

I prefer Mark Twain's view:

"I have no special regard for Satan; but, I can at least claim that I have no prejudice against him. It may even be that I lean a little his way, on account of his not having a fair show. All religions issue bibles against him, and say the most injurious things about him, but we never hear his side. We have none but the evidence for the prosecution, and yet we have rendered the verdict. To my mind, this is irregular. It is un-English, it is un-American; it is French."

"The fact that man knows right from wrong proves his intellectual superiority to the other creatures; but the fact that he can do wrong proves his moral inferiority to any creature that cannot. "

Christian Science 1907:
"When I, a thoughtful and unblessed Presbyterian, examine the Koran, I know that beyond any question every Mohammedan is insane; not in all things, but in religious matters. When a thoughtful and unblessed Mohammedan examines the Westminster Catechism, he knows that beyond any question I am spiritually insane. I cannot prove to him that he is insane, because you never can prove anything to a lunatic--for that is a part of his insanity and the evidence of it. He cannot prove to me that I am insane, for my mind has the same defect that afflicts his. All Democrats are insane, but not one of them knows it; none but the Republicans and Mugwumps know it. All the Republicans are insane, but only the Democrats and Mugwumps can perceive it. The rule is perfect: in all matters of opinion our adversaries are insane."

[|iR|Focalor]

What you will find if you take god out of the equation, is people ready to kill if they can get away with it, with no fear.

I guess you've never met anyone who's been locked up in a federal prison.

By that statement, you basically prove what I've said religion's sole purpose was all along. Back in the early days of civilization they found that organizing and coordinating the peoples efforts towards the sustenance of a kingdom was a lot more beneficial than simply letting everyone fend for themselves. Law was created to keep everything orderly and functioning properly. But back then, they did not have the luxury of video cameras to make sure all the sheep stayed in a straight line. Obviously the ones who managed to gain power and sway over their fellow men were more cunning and intelligent. With that intelligence and cunning (as limited and elementary as it was), they devised religions which used the concepts of guilt and morals as a means instill fear in people as a means to control them more effectively. I'm not necessarily saying it was entirely a bad thing, because it was obviously QUITE effective. So effective that even today people are willing to die and sacrifice their very lives for the religions they choose to follow.

But even back then, there were murderers and thieves and rapists. All of the other animals with larger brains that live on this planet have predatory or selfish instincts. To me, the fact that many people exist who are naturally inclined to be selfish and predatory is further proof that man is just another animal, sometimes better, more often worse than those that walk on all-fours, who, because of his “divine spiritual and intellectual development,” has become the most vicious animal of all.

[|iR|Focalor]

Christian Science 1907:
"When I, a thoughtful and unblessed Presbyterian, examine the Koran, I know that beyond any question every Mohammedan is insane; not in all things, but in religious matters. When a thoughtful and unblessed Mohammedan examines the Westminster Catechism, he knows that beyond any question I am spiritually insane. I cannot prove to him that he is insane, because you never can prove anything to a lunatic--for that is a part of his insanity and the evidence of it. He cannot prove to me that I am insane, for my mind has the same defect that afflicts his. All Democrats are insane, but not one of them knows it; none but the Republicans and Mugwumps know it. All the Republicans are insane, but only the Democrats and Mugwumps can perceive it. The rule is perfect: in all matters of opinion our adversaries are insane."

  Yeah. That's why this thread has continued for several years and 170+ pages... and no one has bent one way or the other. The other person is always obviously fucked in the head.

[QwazyWabbit]

Some more Mark Twain, from "Letters from the Earth":

The Creator sat upon the throne, thinking. Behind him stretched the illimitable continent of heaven, steeped in a glory of light and color; before him rose the black night of Space, like a wall. His mighty bulk towered rugged and mountain-like into the zenith, and His divine head blazed there like a distant sun. At His feet stood three colossal figures, diminished to extinction, almost, by contrast -- archangels -- their heads level with His ankle-bone.

When the Creator had finished thinking, He said, "I have thought. Behold!"

He lifted His hand, and from it burst a fountain-spray of fire, a million stupendous suns, which clove the blackness and soared, away and away and away, diminishing in magnitude and intensity as they pierced the far frontiers of Space, until at last they were but as diamond nailheads sparkling under the domed vast roof of the universe.

At the end of an hour the Grand Council was dismissed.

They left the Presence impressed and thoughtful, and retired to a private place, where they might talk with freedom. None of the three seemed to want to begin, though all wanted somebody to do it. Each was burning to discuss the great event, but would prefer not to commit himself till he should know how the others regarded it. So there was some aimless and halting conversation about matters of no consequence, and this dragged tediously along, arriving nowhere, until at last the archangel Satan gathered his courage together -- of which he had a very good supply -- and broke ground. He said: "We know what we are here to talk about, my lords, and we may as well put pretense aside, and begin. If this is the opinion of the Council -- "

"It is, it is!" said Gabriel and Michael, gratefully interrupting.

"Very well, then, let us proceed. We have witnessed a wonderful thing; as to that, we are necessarily agreed. As to the value of it -- if it has any -- that is a matter which does not personally concern us. We can have as many opinions about it as we like, and that is our limit. We have no vote. I think Space was well enough, just as it was, and useful, too. Cold and dark -- a restful place, now and then, after a season of the overdelicate climate and trying splendors of heaven. But these are details of no considerable moment; the new feature, the immense feature, is -- what, gentlemen?"

"The invention and introduction of automatic, unsupervised, self-regulating law for the government of those myriads of whirling and racing suns and worlds!"

"That is it!" said Satan. "You perceive that it is a stupendous idea. Nothing approaching it has been evolved from the Master Intellect before. Law -- Automatic Law -- exact and unvarying Law -- requiring no watching, no correcting, no readjusting while the eternities endure! He said those countless vast bodies would plunge through the wastes of Space ages and ages, at unimaginable speed, around stupendous orbits, yet never collide, and never lengthen nor shorten their orbital periods by so much as the hundredth part of a second in two thousand years! That is the new miracle, and the greatest of all -- Automatic Law! And He gave it a name -- the LAW OF NATURE -- and said Natural Law is the LAW OF GOD -- interchangeable names for one and the same thing."

"Yes," said Michael, "and He said He would establish Natural Law -- the Law of God -- throughout His dominions, and its authority should be supreme and inviolable."

"Also," said Gabriel, "He said He would by and by create animals, and place them, likewise, under the authority of that Law."

"Yes," said Satan, "I heard Him, but did not understand. What is animals, Gabriel?"

"Ah, how should I know? How should any of us know? It is a new word."

[Interval of three centuries, celestial time -- the equivalent of a hundred million years, earthly time. Enter a Messenger-Angel.]

"My lords, He is making animals. Will it please you to come and see?"

They went, they saw, and were perplexed. Deeply perplexed -- and the Creator noticed it, and said, "Ask. I will answer."

"Divine One," said Satan, making obeisance, "what are they for?"

"They are an experiment in Morals and Conduct. Observe them, and be instructed."

There were thousands of them. They were full of activities. Busy, all busy -- mainly in persecuting each other. Satan remarked -- after examining one of them through a powerful microscope: "This large beast is killing weaker animals, Divine One."

"The tiger -- yes. The law of his nature is ferocity. The law of his nature is the Law of God. He cannot disobey it."

"Then in obeying it he commits no offense, Divine One?"

"No, he is blameless."

"This other creature, here, is timid, Divine One, and suffers death without resisting."

"The rabbit -- yes. He is without courage. It is the law of his nature -- the Law of God. He must obey it."

"Then he cannot honorably be required to go counter to his nature and resist, Divine One?"

"No. No creature can be honorably required to go counter to the law of his nature -- the Law of God."

After a long time and many questions, Satan said, "The spider kills the fly, and eats it; the bird kills the spider and eats it; the wildcat kills the goose; the -- well, they all kill each other. It is murder all along the line. Here are countless multitudes of creatures, and they all kill, kill, kill, they are all murderers. And they are not to blame, Divine One?"

"They are not to blame. It is the law of their nature. And always the law of nature is the Law of God. Now -- observe -- behold! A new creature -- and the masterpiece -- Man!"

Men, women, children, they came swarming in flocks, in droves, in millions.

"What shall you do with them, Divine One?"

"Put into each individual, in differing shades and degrees, all the various Moral Qualities, in mass, that have been distributed, a single distinguishing characteristic at a time, among the nonspeaking animal world -- courage, cowardice, ferocity, gentleness, fairness, justice, cunning, treachery, magnanimity, cruelty, malice, malignity, lust, mercy, pity, purity, selfishness, sweetness, honor, love, hate, baseness, nobility, loyalty, falsity, veracity, untruthfulness -- each human being shall have all of these in him, and they will constitute his nature. In some, there will be high and fine characteristics which will submerge the evil ones, and those will be called good men; in others the evil characteristics will have dominion, and those will be called bad men. Observe -- behold -- they vanish!"

"Whither are they gone, Divine One?"

"To the earth -- they and all their fellow animals."

"What is the earth?"

"A small globe I made, a time, two times and a half ago. You saw it, but did not notice it in the explosion of worlds and suns that sprayed from my hand. Man is an experiment, the other animals are another experiment. Time will show whether they were worth the trouble. The exhibition is over; you may take your leave, my lords."

http://www.positiveatheism.org/hist/twainlfe.htm#0

[reaper]

What you will find if you take god out of the equation, is people ready to kill if they can get away with it, with no fear.

I guess you've never met anyone who's been locked up in a federal prison.

Now if these people had no fear of god you think they would be nicer?

[quadz]

The evidence for the bible is the word of god derived from it.

Aren't you setting the bar a little low, considering there's not a single sentence in the bible that couldn't have been written by an iron age desert dweller.

Essentially it's self evident truths boiled into stories.

I'm glad to hear you say that.  Apparently these self evident truths have been available and indeed remain available to people in all cultures, ancient and modern.  As such, each culture should produce its own works which are distillations of these truths, and not just in the past, but in the present.  Each culture should even today be producing works which distill these self-evident truths as "accurately" as the bible.  Thus the bible is not in itself special, but merely represents the best effort of denizens of ancient cultures to codify truths availble to all of us.  Like Shakespeare or Spinoza or Einstein more recently.

Of course, these days there are some self-evident truths we hold about slavery, human sacrifice, menstruation, virgin brides, etc. that are rather different from ideas on these subjects as transcribed by biblical authors.  So apparently a lot of what were once self-evident truths can become false over time?

[reaper]

Essentially it's self evident truths boiled into stories.

I'm glad to hear you say that.  Apparently these self evident truths have been available and indeed remain available to people in all cultures, ancient and modern.  As such, each culture should produce its own works which are distillations of these truths, and not just in the past, but in the present.  Each culture should even today be producing works which distill these self-evident truths as "accurately" as the bible.  Thus the bible is not in itself special, but merely represents the best effort of denizens of ancient cultures to codify truths availble to all of us.  Like Shakespeare or Spinoza or Einstein more recently.

Of course, these days there are some self-evident truths we hold about slavery, human sacrifice, menstruation, virgin brides, etc. that are rather different from ideas on these subjects as transcribed by biblical authors.  So apparently a lot of what were once self-evident truths can become false over time?

It looks like I have failed then : (.  The bible boils down to much more basic truths, and is a larger authority.  It looks like you will be cherry picking stories and taking them out of context.  I can see both sides of belief, it appears common sense has been lost in some people.  Or maybe it is an illusion that god exists, even though everything is analgous to a higher power.

[quadz]

I think Space was well enough, just as it was, and useful, too. Cold and dark -- a restful place, now and then, after a season of the overdelicate climate and trying splendors of heaven.

[|iR|Focalor]

What you will find if you take god out of the equation, is people ready to kill if they can get away with it, with no fear.

I guess you've never met anyone who's been locked up in a federal prison.

Now if these people had no fear of god you think they would be nicer?

lolwut!?! NO NO NO. Basically what I meant was that a lot of people convicted of capital murder DO believe in God, probably more than half of them. More people read the bible in prison than they do in church. Maybe they didn't read it quite as much UNTIL they got to prison. Nevertheless, more than half of those parolled from prison will return.

Sounded to me like you were making the argument that "because of the existence of God or the belief in God, people will not kill if they can get away with it without fear of spiritual or earthly reprisal." The fact is... they just don't give a shit. They are mostly sociopaths with some type of antisocial personality disorder.

[quadz]

lolwut!?! NO NO NO. Basically what I meant was that a lot of people convicted of capital murder DO believe in God, probably more than half of them.

A lot more than half, it turns out: http://www.skepticfiles.org/american/prison.htm

... But, reaper repeatedly makes the claim on this thread that without fear of supernatural punishment, homo sapiens would on the whole behave worse toward one another.

Each time, it's presented as something he simply "knows" without supporting evidence.  And, each time, evidence is presented by others that would seem to contradict his claims.

In addition to the prison vs. population vs. belief statistics above, we also have the countries at the top of the 'global peace index' rankings:

  http://www.visionofhumanity.org/gpi/results/rankings/2009/

Which can be cross-checked against countries polling for the highest levels of non-belief:

  http://www.adherents.com/largecom/com_atheist.html


All of which may not add up to some kind of scientific proof, but it appears to be rather suggestive circumstantial evidence at the very least.

But several times now, reaper ignores the evidence and repeats what he "knows".


Regards,

[reaper]

jeffery on god and his behavior

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IjW7bezdddE

But several times now, reaper ignores the evidence and repeats what he "knows".

I"m not sure what this obsession with evidence is, if common sense can't survive we have some serious problems.  You made some claims below, well first off, as I've stated before, your surveys aren't accurate.  Even if someone puts ahtiest on a sheet of paper it doesn't mean they aren't scared of god.  How do I know this?  There's no evidence; maybe I should disregard it.  No, I'm going to be honest.  Anyways, as a case in point let's see how elegantly Jeffery explains the situation.

 

I never claimed I know the truth, simply what I believe is likely to be the truth - that there is some force/higher power.  Aside from that, I noted that even if there wasn't, there appears to be the illusion that there is, and the belief is needed for humanity.  And I've read the book "the god delusion"...yeah pretty much a way to totally make enemies - not going to help.

[QwazyWabbit]

"I do not fear death. I had been dead for billions and billions of years before I was born, and had not suffered the slightest inconvenience from it." - Mark Twain