Poll

DM Server: Spawn Farthest?

Keep Spawn Farthest
12 (41.4%)
Disable Spawn Farthest
14 (48.3%)
Some other solution (post below)
3 (10.3%)

Total Members Voted: 28

Author Topic: DM Server: Spawn Farthest?  (Read 10812 times)

Offline [BTF]Defiant!

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DM Server: Spawn Farthest?
« on: May 30, 2006, 03:17:39 PM »

Quake 2 deathmatch has two options for how players respawn:

  • Random : players respawn at a random spawn pad (default)
  • Spawn Farthest : players respawn at the spawn pad farthest from the group

I don't like spawn farthest for two reasons:
 - it increases camping, because players will continually spawn at the same location.
 - on big maps, players spawn far from the group (e.g. q2dm4, people spawn by the GL across the bridge).

Def
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Re: DM Server: Spawn Farthest?
« Reply #1 on: May 30, 2006, 03:25:36 PM »
A lot of times on the tourney servers I continually spawned in the same place I died at least 3 or 4 times (by railgun), I always got spawn raped by a railer controlling that area. :P
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Offline Whirlingdervish

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Re: DM Server: Spawn Farthest?
« Reply #2 on: May 30, 2006, 03:42:52 PM »
I find random spawning to be incredibly fair in almost every circumstance...

You might end up spawning right in front of the guy who just killed you, but at least
you won't have to run the length of the map to find someone to shoot at...

For FFA I'd say that spawn farthest isn't really useful anyways...
If there are more than 3 people on the server, you wont be spawning that far away from anyone
unless the map is gigantic, or the rest of the players are all camping the same area...

Random spawning sets the pace a little higher and makes the game more difficult, but
much more enjoyable.
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Offline console

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Re: DM Server: Spawn Farthest?
« Reply #3 on: May 30, 2006, 06:12:47 PM »
Note that Spawn Farthest is OFF on all the tourney servers.

But yes, it is ON on the FFA servers.  (Note that you can override it on a per-map basis with mymap.)

I don't mind turning it off for the less crowded servers.  The reason vanilla is +sf is when I tried it with -sf, with the server crowded with 25 or so players, -sf seemed to dramatically increase the spawn frags.  To the point where it was really annoying, at least to me.

Also, regarding the randomness of -sf.  This may or may not have changed recently in r1q2, but quake2 has always used the standard library rand() function, and it's using the lower order bits to choose the random spawn point.

E.g. selection = rand() % count;  // where count is the number of spawn pads minus 2

I can't find the article at the moment, but anyway, the lower order bits of rand() are known to be "not very random" in most standard library implementations.  So when Mya mentions the tourney servers (which are -sf) and repeatedly spawning in the same place, it may be the "not very random" lower order bits of the standard library rand() that are contributing to this.

It may be that changing the q2 spawn selection code to something like:

  selection = (rand() >> 8) % count;

...might help.  (Or linking with a more badass prand generator like MT or something.  Maybe r1q2 already does this, I don't have time to check atm.)


Regards,

« Last Edit: May 30, 2006, 06:14:30 PM by console »
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Offline [BTF]DeathStalker

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Re: DM Server: Spawn Farthest?
« Reply #4 on: May 30, 2006, 11:16:38 PM »
What ever keeps people from being spawn camped so easily. And keeps people from knowing almost exactly where you respawned.
Also I don't know if this has anything to do with it, but in the start of a match in QDM5, I always start on the same exact pad location every time hte map is loaded. Wierd
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Offline 10

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Re: DM Server: Spawn Farthest?
« Reply #5 on: June 24, 2006, 02:19:08 AM »
A lot of times on the tourney servers I continually spawned in the same place I died at least 3 or 4 times (by railgun), I always got spawn raped by a railer controlling that area. :P

Simple solution.  Don't die.
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Re: DM Server: Spawn Farthest?
« Reply #6 on: July 02, 2006, 12:42:25 PM »
I liked the lithium solution to it.  Keep the invul on for a few seconds or until they fire a weapon, and start everyone with SSG or SG....or I've even seen a handgrenade on a couple servers.  Spawn camping = null.  Makes the game play more interesting too because instead of getting an easy kill you gotta watch your back around spawn pads.  Keeps the fighting to the arenas, where the fighting should be.
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Offline Art

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Re: DM Server: Spawn Farthest?
« Reply #7 on: July 02, 2006, 01:21:06 PM »
Ok, this has been discussed before. It must be buried deep somewhere.
With spawn randon (supposedly), you WILL respawn in the same place several times in a row regardless of what's going on in that area. It's definately NOT that random. Remember HALS-PC server where you would spawn on dm2 at the top of the elevator above the RL 3-4 times in a row without ever getting to take a step off the pad? The guy spamming rockets up there will constanty frag because after you get through with your turn spawning up there, someone else will immediately take your place, and so on. This was because of the random spawn setting. Sub one minute ffa maps are real fun, eh ? I avoided that server just because of that one setting.
With spawn fartherest, you will spawn as far away as possible from the action and on a pad that is unoccupied, if one is availible. Yes, you might span a few times in a row on the same pad but rarely is someone camping it. You can test this yourself by going to spec and hovering on a pad. No one will spawn there unless all others are full and there's more action around them. I have often done this on dm7 at the upper rl to thwart the rocket spammers there.

The bottom line is, although ffa spawncamp is possible under almost any situation, it is rampant with the -sf setting. I think for tdm, the random spawn setting is appropriate so the spawn points can't be manipulated by outside interference ... that is, spectators.
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Offline console

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Re: DM Server: Spawn Farthest?
« Reply #8 on: July 02, 2006, 01:44:43 PM »
We do have the ability to turn on the yellow spawn protect shield on the dm server, like on the other FFA servers.

(And the "penalty" aspect of it can be turned off, so you don't get gibbed for accidentally shooting a spawner.)

I could set that up in about 10 seconds, since it's just setting some flags.

Alternately, it would not be difficult to improve the "spawn random" code on the server.  Either by avoiding the low-order bits of rand(), or maybe compiling in a badass prng like Mersenne Twister to generate the random sequence, or... Some combination, where it's still random, but limits itself from spawning on the same pad twice in a row EVEN IF the pseudo random number generator said to.  :)

Since I'm pressed for time at the moment, I'll just turn on 1.0 seconds spawn protect with NO penalty, and see how that goes.  :evilalien:

Regards,

:mrgreen:
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Offline X'tyfe

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Re: DM Server: Spawn Farthest?
« Reply #9 on: July 02, 2006, 02:05:34 PM »
spawn farthest really needs to be turned off on railz, its really silly too  :P

if you look trhough the server stats, you will the server streaks are huge
and that most of them are from the person killing the same person over and over
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Re: DM Server: Spawn Farthest?
« Reply #10 on: July 02, 2006, 03:23:45 PM »
Quote from: [BTF]X'tyfe on July 02, 2006, 02:05:34 PM
Quote from: [BTF]X'tyfe on July 02, 2006, 02:05:34 PM
spawn farthest really needs to be turned off on railz

OK, spawn-farthest is off on railz.


Regards,

:mrgreen:
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Offline X'tyfe

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Re: DM Server: Spawn Farthest?
« Reply #11 on: July 02, 2006, 03:35:47 PM »
!! thanks console  :notworthy:
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Offline us/3r

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Re: DM Server: Spawn Farthest?
« Reply #12 on: July 03, 2006, 01:25:40 AM »
whoa...10 secs is a little too long.  I was thinking more on the order of 3-5...but definitetly <5 secs. 
I've also seen dm maps modified with SSG's over the spawn pads to emulate the starting with weapon you get in lithium without all those annoying air control issues.  Course then again running around with a blaster is kinda fun sometimes :)  So I'd say forget I suggested the weapons thing...that's not really in the spirit of dm I think.
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Offline Art

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Re: DM Server: Spawn Farthest?
« Reply #13 on: July 03, 2006, 01:32:07 AM »
Yeah console, why does it take you so long get things done.
« Last Edit: July 03, 2006, 01:35:55 AM by Art »
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Re: DM Server: Spawn Farthest?
« Reply #14 on: July 03, 2006, 03:03:29 AM »
Quote from: [BTF]X&#039;tyfe on July 02, 2006, 02:05:34 PM
Quote from: [BTF]X'tyfe on July 02, 2006, 02:05:34 PM
spawn farthest really needs to be turned off on railz

OK, spawn-farthest is off on railz.

Mog aint gonna be happy about this
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