Lost World [ALPHA]

[themuffinman]

Sup, Howdy, long time etc.

Pappa Muff has got a little end-of-year something to share!

Here's my remake of the Quake III:Arena classic Lost World. Despite the controversial omission of a Railgun, it was a popular choice amongst duelers - especially in early Q3 days. It's had a number of versions released over time, including the officlal 'pro' version, a couple variations by level designer Swelt and ultimately revised for Quake Live. My take is based mostly on a rescaled QL layout, which I completely rebuilt over the last two or three days.

Right now it's just an early blocking out of the layout with a few extra bits of detailing, and uses only 3 textures and a skybox. Still, I'm happy enough with the gameplay so far that I thought some folks might enjoy trying it out and leaving some feedback. Particularly the scaling and item layout needs some attention.

 

Download: https://www.dropbox.com/s/on69ltnhf89khx2/lostworld-a1.zip?dl=0

Screenies:

[gr13v3]

 

looks good !
what editor do you use ?

[themuffinman]

GtkRadiant 1.6.6

What do you use?

[quadz]

I also hate ported/remade maps. I think they play like trash and are neither a good representation of the map they were inspired by nor a purpose built Q2 map.

Pay no mind to this Negative Nancy.

muffinman, your ports of campgrounds and bloodrun are two of the most-requested maps on our FFA servers.


 

[|iR|Focalor]

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I'm sure there is a lot more I could go into. Very late and am tired. In the end it is a newly built map and the artist can do whatever they want with it.

[haunted]

Thanks for the condensed version. Sometimes quality is better than quantity. Not trying to bash on ya, vae, but you have to be more concise with your points.

[themuffinman]

I also hate ported/remade maps. I think they play like trash and are neither a good representation of the map they were inspired by nor a purpose built Q2 map. They are great visual pieces and can be some dumb fun when used sparingly, but also result in some of the stupidest games possible because the maps aren't built around what makes a good Q2 map.

Seems you've changed your tune quite dramatically over the years:

tourney4 would prob be another q3a map that would be pretty interesting to see in q2, but not sure if it has enough weapons/armors

would love to see some q4 map love because q4 had AWESOME maps, but they just don't have the same feel in q2 there is already a monsoon conversion

Any case, thanks for the feedback. There's a lot to work through there and I agree with much of it.
A few points:
- the item layout was based on QL for FFA, as the original q3dm13 intended, and as such includes Quad. I will release with a duel override in next version. Agreed on the extra grenades and the lack of health at RL.
- some areas might feel a bit oversized but will be tighter once extra detailing is added (ie: doorways)

[themuffinman]

I also hate ported/remade maps. I think they play like trash and are neither a good representation of the map they were inspired by nor a purpose built Q2 map.

Pay no mind to this Negative Nancy.

muffinman, your ports of campgrounds and bloodrun are two of the most-requested maps on our FFA servers.


 

 

[VaeVictis]

I also hate ported/remade maps. I think they play like trash and are neither a good representation of the map they were inspired by nor a purpose built Q2 map.

Pay no mind to this Negative Nancy.

muffinman, your ports of campgrounds and bloodrun are two of the most-requested maps on our FFA servers.


 

FFA and duel are very different. Even in 2v2 I think the maps are mostly fine, but in duel I just hate how they play. This could just be because of the thousands of hours of dueling in QL. Likely my experience with the maps gives me a different set of expectations.

Seems you've changed your tune quite dramatically over the years:

Opinions can change. I just have a lot more time into each quake individually. The problem with ports is that you are taking something that was already good in another quake, and translating it over to a game that is mechanically very different and hoping it will still be good. For instance I like q2dm1, ztn2dm3 and q2rdm2, but I think they translate like absolute garbage into QL and people who only experience them in QL can not appreciate how good those maps really are because the game mechanics just don't work with the layout and size. This is not a comment on the quality of the mapper, just the fact that it is not purpose built for that quake. Your ports are very well done, but it is an uphill battle to make them play at the same level as the original.

There are good ports though. Aerowalk in every quake is pretty good, however the layout and how the map plays is very different in every quake and the fact it is good seems like it was just purely luck. Phrantic in Q4 is another great example where the map plays a little different, and layout/scaling is changed where it works well in Q4. Going from q3 to q4 isn't as jarring as qw/q2/ql though. A weird example of porting would just be bloodrun between QW and QL since they are like completely different maps with just the same geometry. It is likely impossible to get a lostworld port from QL to Q2 that plays like the QL version, but maybe the geometry can be used with a changed layout and scaling to make a unique Q2 experience.

To everyone else, I deleted my feedback since it seems unappreciated and unwanted. I'll just go back to playing duel and you all can enjoy your time on the dm server without ever understanding anything about quake. Ignorance is bliss and these forums are full of blissful players.

[quadz]

FFA and duel are very different.

Agreed. 

I deleted my feedback since it seems unappreciated and unwanted.

Aw.

Wasn't trying to devalue the substance of your contribution; just file down some of the rough edges in terms of social cohesion.

I wish you hadn't deleted it.

I'll just go back to playing duel and you all can enjoy your time on the dm server without ever understanding anything about quake. Ignorance is bliss and these forums are full of blissful players.

That's the spirit!


 

[|iR|Focalor]

... I think ... I ... my experience ...

I ...I like ..., but I think ....

....

...I ... my (self-aggrandizing) feedback ...  seems unappreciated and unwanted (and I can't figure out why).  I'll just go...

Bye, Felicia.

[themuffinman]

Opinions can change. I just have a lot more time into each quake individually. The problem with ports is that you are taking something that was already good in another quake, and translating it over to a game that is mechanically very different and hoping it will still be good. For instance I like q2dm1, ztn2dm3 and q2rdm2, but I think they translate like absolute garbage into QL and people who only experience them in QL can not appreciate how good those maps really are because the game mechanics just don't work with the layout and size. This is not a comment on the quality of the mapper, just the fact that it is not purpose built for that quake. Your ports are very well done, but it is an uphill battle to make them play at the same level as the original.

There are good ports though. Aerowalk in every quake is pretty good, however the layout and how the map plays is very different in every quake and the fact it is good seems like it was just purely luck. Phrantic in Q4 is another great example where the map plays a little different, and layout/scaling is changed where it works well in Q4. Going from q3 to q4 isn't as jarring as qw/q2/ql though. A weird example of porting would just be bloodrun between QW and QL since they are like completely different maps with just the same geometry. It is likely impossible to get a lostworld port from QL to Q2 that plays like the QL version, but maybe the geometry can be used with a changed layout and scaling to make a unique Q2 experience.

To everyone else, I deleted my feedback since it seems unappreciated and unwanted. I'll just go back to playing duel and you all can enjoy your time on the dm server without ever understanding anything about quake. Ignorance is bliss and these forums are full of blissful players.

Is this the ztn2dm3 you're referring to? https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=563655427
As much as I admire Foralarx's passion in mapping, this port is frankly terrible which I pointed out in a comment on LvL. I had done a layout for Q3 that fits both physics and successfully translated the gameplay. I did the same for q2dm1, although QL physics + ramp jumping would be recommended. I'm willing to share those if you're interested but the point I'm making here is that it is far too easy to make a terrible port and just because terrible ports make up the vast majority of ports, doesn't mean it's impossible to get right (as you kind of insinuated).

As for the last paragraph, get off that high horse, knock that chip off your shoulder and realize the constant negative reactions to your posts are purely caused by the way you come across rather than the underlying messages.

[VaeVictis]

Opinions can change. I just have a lot more time into each quake individually. The problem with ports is that you are taking something that was already good in another quake, and translating it over to a game that is mechanically very different and hoping it will still be good. For instance I like q2dm1, ztn2dm3 and q2rdm2, but I think they translate like absolute garbage into QL and people who only experience them in QL can not appreciate how good those maps really are because the game mechanics just don't work with the layout and size. This is not a comment on the quality of the mapper, just the fact that it is not purpose built for that quake. Your ports are very well done, but it is an uphill battle to make them play at the same level as the original.

There are good ports though. Aerowalk in every quake is pretty good, however the layout and how the map plays is very different in every quake and the fact it is good seems like it was just purely luck. Phrantic in Q4 is another great example where the map plays a little different, and layout/scaling is changed where it works well in Q4. Going from q3 to q4 isn't as jarring as qw/q2/ql though. A weird example of porting would just be bloodrun between QW and QL since they are like completely different maps with just the same geometry. It is likely impossible to get a lostworld port from QL to Q2 that plays like the QL version, but maybe the geometry can be used with a changed layout and scaling to make a unique Q2 experience.

To everyone else, I deleted my feedback since it seems unappreciated and unwanted. I'll just go back to playing duel and you all can enjoy your time on the dm server without ever understanding anything about quake. Ignorance is bliss and these forums are full of blissful players.

Is this the ztn2dm3 you're referring to? https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=563655427
As much as I admire Foralarx's passion in mapping, this port is frankly terrible which I pointed out in a comment on LvL. I had done a layout for Q3 that fits both physics and successfully translated the gameplay. I did the same for q2dm1, although QL physics + ramp jumping would be recommended. I'm willing to share those if you're interested but the point I'm making here is that it is far too easy to make a terrible port and just because terrible ports make up the vast majority of ports, doesn't mean it's impossible to get right (as you kind of insinuated).

As for the last paragraph, get off that high horse, knock that chip off your shoulder and realize the constant negative reactions to your posts are purely caused by the way you come across rather than the underlying messages.

I've only seen the one port of ztn2dm3 and it was pretty bad. The port of q2rdm2 is actually an OSP map and some people liked it for other game modes, but it wasn't comparable to the original. When I say I hate ported maps, I also mean the well done ones though.

The bloodrun port you did is very well executed, however because it was so close to the q3 version and less so like the tighter qw version or even the nodm version from cpma, the scaling makes it play terrible in a 1v1 situation where the +back play is significantly stronger than it was in Q3 or QL due to how hard it is to close the distance with the greater sound awareness. You probably won't experience that playing 4/5 people, but that 1/5 player really just makes the map unplayable to me personally. Even in QL I can show anyone how to survive on the map almost indefinitely and the counter play is pretty difficult (involves hitting perfect rails or trading a LOT of stack), so you take that and add q2 sound with slower movement speed to approach the fight and it does not end up fun to play or competitive. I'm not saying it is a bad map overall, I'm saying it is a bad DUEL map mostly just because of its size. It took the source material too literal trying to mirror it instead of making a version of bloodrun designed for Q2.  You are a very talented mapper, but maybe don't think about the game the same way as some one who can sit down and talk about duel positioning for hours.

One of the things I mentioned about lostworld is to make the scaling tighter, because mirroring what worked in Q3 does not mean it will work in Q2. In QL, outside mid is scaled in a perfect way that LG won't reach from end to end and that gets used a lot in fights and forces players to actually switch to MG (spawn weapon unlike Q2) or plasma. If the scaling is kept the same in Q2, chain doesn't have a max distance and would just dominate the open area with no challenge at distance and the blaster is a shit starting weapon so you couldn't really return any kind of damage if caught in that situation. I think hyper cells travel slower than plasma as well which limits that capability, though I don't know the exact ups they move at so I can't say for sure. Not to mention how terrible rockets will feel on any of the larger sight lines where they aren't an issue in Q3/QL. Q2 rockets are 500ups, Q3 are 800ups, and QL are 1000ups.

And I'm not on a high horse. I posted something I thought was actually constructive about a map I know very well, and being one of the VERY few players who is good in both Q2 duel and QL duel, offered my insight as much as I could. You don't have to listen to it because it was just feedback from my perspective and my own opinion which was clearly stated to not offend anyones poor feelings. However, getting people talking shit on me who haven't played quake in a decade and never played at my level (haunted), or are just some ffa/dm trash player who has no idea what I'm even talking about (focalor) purely because they see it as a safe target to shit talk that no one will defend is a little irritating. Even quadz hopped on the train.

Despite how you think of me as a person, I know both games very well and have put a lot of time into talking to mid to high end players about all of the finer points of duel. I'm probably the only person who occasionally checks this forum that could weigh in with any kind of actual useful information, unless some people show up that haven't posted in years. If you don't want input then don't ask for it. If my feedback is not appreciated when I thought it was something of value then I will take it back. I'm not obligated to provide insight into how to play the game to people as worthless as the ones that responded to me.

Also, focalor, I'm not going anywhere. Been better than you at Q2 since the first time I played over a decade ago and I kept getting better while you remained bad by only playing dm like a fucking shitcan. If you want to sit here and just act like a big man because you can derail a map feedback thread by talking shit on me when I post legitimate information, first consider that you could in no way match my contribution to a mapping conversation because you'd rather talk shit on the forum than learn how to play the game you've sucked ass in for more than a decade. You are a fucking waste of oxygen and a stupid inbred cunt. Jump off a cliff, no one will miss you. 

[|iR|Focalor]

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... I ...I think... I ... I can't ....

...I'm not ... good .... I could. ...listen to ... my own opinion ...However,... shit on me ... my level (haunted), ....I'm .... .... irritating. ....

...me ..., I know... I'm ... ... my ... I thought ... I ... I'm ... worthless ... me.

...I'm not ...... I ... I ... want to sit here and just act like a big man ... I post....

WELL... in that case... I take it all back. Because you can beat me at a fucking video game, obviously you are magically no longer an annoying self-absorbed shithead.

Good day, sir!

[VaeVictis]

WELL... in that case... I take it all back. Because you can beat me at a fucking video game, obviously you are magically no longer an annoying self-absorbed shithead.

Good day, sir!

You haven't been able to make a single on topic post in the entire thread

If anyone is an annoying self absorbed shit head, then it is definitely you. Quit derailing actual discussion about quake just to jerk off about how funny you think you are.

Do something useful for once in your miserable life and go play the map that muffin posted and provide your extremely uneducated and incredibly ignorant opinion on it. It won't even be worth as much as the air you waste by continuing to exist every day, but at least you'd be on topic for once.