Author Topic: Mass Murderers  (Read 11491 times)

Offline Sgt. Dick

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Re: Mass Murderers
« Reply #15 on: May 27, 2014, 04:15:53 AM »
If not getting any action makes you more likely to be a mass murderer, we need to watch out for 2dum.
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Offline haunted

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Re: Mass Murderers
« Reply #16 on: May 27, 2014, 07:23:11 AM »
LOL
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Offline The Dreaming Dragon

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Re: Mass Murderers
« Reply #17 on: May 27, 2014, 11:41:43 AM »
(continued)

It's our gonads holding us hostage ,battering c ommon sense with hormonal discharges. Its that intensity of desire that "creeps" people out,wanting physical contact as if it was a dangling piece of meat in a sandwich being glared at by a hungry dog,willing it to fall into its mouth. I'm sure its how this crazy kid was,and unsurprisingly he found himself shunned. But its the premise itself that's madness:believing that happiness and self worth lie in the arms of some as-yet-unmet stranger,and only by seeking them out can one achieve fulfillment and acceptance.

That is both too much power to grant anyone,and too great a burden to lay at someone's feet. If someone demanded that of YOU,wouldn't your first reaction be to run for the hills,even if it was a well known person in your life,let alone as a new acquaintance? I cannot blame people being repulsed by this,but I can only wonder how this Shooter Du Joor would have dealt with life  after realizing these ideas. Too late now for him,but not too late for the many lonely  souls puttering around who dare to agree with his angst and anger.

I can tell you tales of my own follies when I was lead enlightened(but not now since .my phome is going dead). I'll just summarize with this:having a life worth sharing should be one's first priority. Then maybe someone worthy of your time may want to share yours...
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Offline quadz

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Re: Mass Murderers
« Reply #18 on: May 27, 2014, 03:48:54 PM »
I guess it's just easy to say that there are some people who were just doomed from the start, even if that's not really true.

Paradoxically, while at some level it might indeed be easy to say the above, it also appears to be very hard for many people to truly grapple with the notion that what we think of as Free Will turns out to be a neurologically incoherent concept.

(I'd highly recommend the short book linked above to anyone. I'd read it a couple years ago, and am still feeling its effects on my reasoning. A few dollars and a few hours time seems a considerable bargain to experience the dismantling of one of life's central illusions. :shifteyes: It's like 60 Minutes™ on acid
It's like 60 Minutes™ on acid.)

But in essence, none of us is able to take credit for not having the brain of a psychopath.

Some might try to roll this back, saying, well I made a series of decisions over the course of my life that put me in a different position than that person who made evil choices.

But there are multiple problems with this line of reasoning. One is that we are not the conscious authors of our own thoughts. That is, at any given moment, we don't get to choose the next thought that will appear in consciousness. Another is that children as young as four years old can be tested with some reliability as being at risk of psychopathy. (Sometimes even at two years old.)

So there's no clear position over the timeline of one's life to point to and say, ok here is where I personally get to take credit for having the kind of brain that makes better choices than this other person's brain.


:exqueezeme:
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Offline Barton

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Re: Mass Murderers
« Reply #19 on: May 27, 2014, 07:37:45 PM »
I heard that the police did a welfare check after Elliot's parents saw his youtube videos. It is too unfortunate that the police didn't take his parent's fears seriously and checked Elliot's room, in which he had hidden 400 rounds of ammunition and three handguns. If they suspected suicide/murder tendencies, why didn't they do more.
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Offline QwazyWabbit

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Re: Mass Murderers
« Reply #20 on: May 27, 2014, 09:24:21 PM »
They apparently didn't even run his record or NCIC or check the gun ownership registry to see if he owned any. I wonder if they asked mom about it. If she had no knowledge that he'd been buying them then they might have been operating on that assumption. Still, it wouldn't have hurt to ask to search his room, even if he had said no. Cops go out of their way to ask to search cars when they pull you over.
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Offline yahoo

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Re: Mass Murderers
« Reply #21 on: May 28, 2014, 12:20:53 AM »
In a way, masterbation can be viewed as mass murder . :P
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Offline Golgo13

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Re: Mass Murderers
« Reply #22 on: May 30, 2014, 10:40:30 PM »


Paradoxically, while at some level it might indeed be easy to say the above, it also appears to be very hard for many people to truly grapple with the notion that what we think of as Free Will turns out to be a neurologically incoherent concept.

(I'd highly recommend the short book linked above to anyone. I'd read it a couple years ago, and am still feeling its effects on my reasoning. A few dollars and a few hours time seems a considerable bargain to experience the dismantling of one of life's central illusions. :shifteyes: It's like 60 Minutes™ on acid
It's like 60 Minutes™ on acid.)

But in essence, none of us is able to take credit for not having the brain of a psychopath.


I can't help but call BS on that. So, You're generally saying, nobody else who got used and abused ended up choosing to be good over bad? that's a crock. i read that passage, there is no proof to say every case is likened to what  those sick sons of bitches did. There were hollywood actors that got abused as children and they turned out to be decent people. (corey feldman) (anyone can make examples and say what they think is possible. that's some merovinginian shit right there quadz. people aren't accountable for their actions. to some degree our choices are limited but everything begins with choice..

<span data-s9e-mediaembed="youtube" style="display:inline-block;width:100%;max-width:640px"><span style="display:block;overflow:hidden;position:relative;padding-bottom:56.25%"><iframe allowfullscreen="" scrolling="no" style="background:url(https://i.ytimg.com/vi/iR3fSL9WMdg/hqdefault.jpg) 50% 50% / cover;border:0;height:100%;left:0;position:absolute;width:100%" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/iR3fSL9WMdg"></iframe></span></span><br /><a href="http://www.youtube.com/v/iR3fSL9WMdg" target="_blank" class="new_win">http://www.youtube.com/v/iR3fSL9WMdg</a>
« Last Edit: May 31, 2014, 01:19:13 AM by R. Hayabusa »
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Offline quadz

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Re: Mass Murderers
« Reply #23 on: May 31, 2014, 12:57:16 AM »
I can't help but call BS on that. So, You're generally saying, nobody else who got used and abused ended up choosing to be good over bad? that's a crock.

Huh?

Let's try it this way: Did you have the free will to completely misunderstand what I was saying? Did you choose that path deliberately? Or was your brain's neural network wired in such a way that you were taken down that path without your consent? ;)

But seriously: The neuroscientist (Sam Harris) was in no way claiming individuals don't react differently trauma.

Here's additional context:

Quote from: excerpt from Free Will by Sam Harris
The belief in free will has given us both the religious conception of “sin” and our commitment to retributive justice. The U.S. Supreme Court has called free will a “universal and persistent” foundation for our system of law, distinct from “a deterministic view of human conduct that is inconsistent with the underlying precepts of our criminal justice system” (United States v. Grayson, 1978). Any intellectual developments that threatened free will would seem to put “the ethics of punishing people for their bad behavior in question.”

The great worry, of course, is that an honest discussion of the underlying causes of human behavior appears to leave no room for moral responsibility. If we view people as neuronal weather patterns, how can we coherently speak about right and wrong or good and evil? These notions seem to depend upon people being able to freely choose how to think and act. And if we remain committed to seeing people as people, we must find some notion of personal responsibility that fits the facts.

Happily, we can. What does it mean to take responsibility for an action? Yesterday I went to the market; I was fully clothed, did not steal anything, and did not buy anchovies. To say that I was responsible for my behavior is simply to say that what I did was sufficiently in keeping with my thoughts, intentions, beliefs, and desires to be considered an extension of them. If I had found myself standing in the market naked, intent upon stealing as many tins of anchovies as I could carry, my behavior would be totally out of character; I would feel that I was not in my right mind, or that I was otherwise not responsible for my actions. Judgments of responsibility depend upon the overall complexion of one’s mind, not on the metaphysics of mental cause and effect.

Consider the following examples of human violence:

1. A four-year-old boy was playing with his father’s gun and killed a young woman. The gun had been kept loaded and unsecured in a dresser drawer.
2. A 12-year-old boy who had been the victim of continual physical and emotional abuse took his father’s gun and intentionally shot and killed a young woman because she was teasing him.
3. A 25-year-old man who had been the victim of continual abuse as a child intentionally shot and killed his girlfriend because she left him for another man.
4. A 25-year-old man who had been raised by wonderful parents and never abused intentionally shot and killed a young woman he had never met “just for the fun of it.”
5. A 25-year-old man who had been raised by wonderful parents and never abused intentionally shot and killed a young woman he had never met “just for the fun of it.” An MRI of the man’s brain revealed a tumor the size of a golf ball in his medial prefrontal cortex (a region responsible for the control of emotion and behavioral impulses.)

In each case a young woman died, and in each case her death was the result of events arising in the brain of another human being. But the degree of moral outrage we feel depends on the background conditions described in each case. We suspect that a four-year-old child cannot truly kill someone on purpose and that the intentions of a 12-year-old do not run as deep as those of an adult. In cases 1 and 2, we know that the brain of the killer has not fully matured and that not all the responsibilities of “personhood” have yet been conferred. The history of abuse and the precipitating circumstance in case 3 seem to mitigate the man’s guilt: This was a crime of passion committed by a person who had himself suffered at the hands of others. In 4 there has been no abuse, and the motive brands the perpetrator a psychopath. Case 5 involves the same psychopathic behavior and motive, but a brain tumor somehow changes the moral calculus entirely: Given its location, it seems to divest the killer of all responsibility for his crime. And it works this miracle even if the man’s subjective experience was identical to that of the psychopath in case 4—for the moment we understand that his feelings had a physical cause, a brain tumor, we cannot help seeing him as a victim of his own biology.

How can we make sense of these gradations of moral responsibility when brains and their background influences are in every case, and to exactly the same degree, the real cause of a woman’s death?

We need not have any illusions that a causal agent lives within the human mind to recognize that certain people are dangerous. What we condemn most in another person is the conscious intention to do harm. Degrees of guilt can still be judged by reference to the facts of a case: the personality of the accused, his prior offenses, his patterns of association with others, his use of intoxicants, his confessed motives with regard to the victim, etc. If a person’s actions seem to have been entirely out of character, this might influence our view of the risk he now poses to others. If the accused appears unrepentant and eager to kill again, we need entertain no notions of free will to consider him a danger to society.

Why is the conscious decision to do another person harm particularly blameworthy? Because what we do subsequent to conscious planning tends to most fully reflect the global properties of our minds—our beliefs, desires, goals, prejudices, etc. If, after weeks of deliberation, library research, and debate with your friends, you still decide to kill the king—well, then killing the king reflects the sort of person you really are. The point is not that you are the ultimate and independent cause of your actions; the point is that, for whatever reason, you have the mind of a regicide.

Certain criminals must be incarcerated to prevent them from harming other people. The moral justification for this is entirely straightforward: Everyone else will be better off this way. Dispensing with the illusion of free will allows us to focus on the things that matter—assessing risk, protecting innocent people, deterring crime, etc. However, certain moral intuitions begin to relax the moment we take a wider picture of causality into account. Once we recognize that even the most terrifying predators are, in a very real sense, unlucky to be who they are, the logic of hating (as opposed to fearing) them begins to unravel. Once again, even if you believe that every human being harbors an immortal soul, the picture does not change: Anyone born with the soul of a psychopath has been profoundly unlucky.

Why does the brain tumor in case 5 change our view of the situation so dramatically? One reason is that its influence has been visited upon a person who (we must assume) would not otherwise behave in this way. Both the tumor and its effects seem adventitious, and this makes the perpetrator appear to be purely a victim of biology. Of course, if we couldn’t cure his condition, we would still need to lock him up to prevent him from committing further crimes, but we would not hate him or condemn him as evil. Here is one front on which I believe our moral intuitions must change: The more we understand the human mind in causal terms, the harder it becomes to draw a distinction between cases like 4 and 5.

The men and women on death row have some combination of bad genes, bad parents, bad environments, and bad ideas (and the innocent, of course, have supremely bad luck.) Which of these quantities, exactly, were they responsible for? No human being is responsible for his genes or his upbringing, yet we have every reason to believe that these factors determine his character. Our system of justice should reflect an understanding that any of us could have been dealt a very different hand in life. In fact, it seems immoral not to recognize just how much luck is involved in morality itself.

To see how fully our moral intuitions must shift, consider what would happen if we discovered a cure for human evil. Imagine that every relevant change in the human brain could now be made cheaply, painlessly, and safely. In fact, the cure could be put directly into the food supply, like vitamin D. Evil would become nothing more than a nutritional deficiency.

If we imagine that a cure for evil exists, we can see that our retributive impulse is morally flawed. Consider, for instance, the prospect of withholding the cure for evil from a murderer as part of his punishment. Would this make any sense at all? What could it possibly mean to say that a person deserves to have this treatment withheld? What if the treatment was available prior to his crime? Would he still be responsible for his actions? It seems far more likely that those who had been aware of his case would be indicted for negligence. Would it make any sense to deny surgery to the man in case 5 as a punishment if we knew that the brain tumor was the actual cause of his violence? Of course not. The implications of this seem inescapable: The urge for retribution depends upon our not seeing the underlying causes of human behavior.

Despite our attachment to the notion of free will, most of us know that disorders of the brain can trump the best intentions of the mind. This shift in understanding represents progress toward a deeper, more consistent, and more compassionate view of our common humanity—and we should note that this is progress away from religious metaphysics. Few concepts have offered greater scope for human cruelty than the idea of an immortal soul that stands independent of all material influences, ranging from genes to economic systems.

Within a religious framework, a belief in free will supports the notion of sin—which seems to justify not only harsh punishment in this life but eternal punishment in the next. And yet, ironically, one of the fears attending our progress in science is that a more complete understanding of ourselves will dehumanize us.

Viewing human beings as natural phenomena need not damage our system of criminal justice. If we could incarcerate earthquakes and hurricanes for their crimes, we would build prisons for them as well. We fight emerging epidemics—and even the occasional wild animal—without attributing free will to them. Clearly, we can respond intelligently to the threat posed by dangerous people without lying to ourselves about the ultimate origins of human behavior. We will still need a criminal justice system that attempts to accurately assess guilt and innocence along with the future risks that the guilty pose to society. But the logic of punishing people will come undone—unless we find that punishment is an essential component of deterrence or rehabilitation.

It must be admitted, however, that the issue of retribution is a tricky one. In a fascinating article in The New Yorker, Jared Diamond writes of the high price we sometimes pay when our desire for vengeance goes unfulfilled.
[...continued in book]

Does that help clarify?

:exqueezeme:

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Offline ex

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Re: Mass Murderers
« Reply #24 on: May 31, 2014, 06:01:14 AM »
Lots of tl;dr going on.

Can't we just admit the truth?  This kid was a fucking loser.  He could've been the hottest piece of ass getting all the sorority chicks he wanted, and he still wouldn't have been happy; he would have probably gone Ted Bundy and started raping/killing them anyway.

It's just like in nature.  You see all those plants in the forest?  Most of them are good.  They grow happily and freely, and are strong, healthy individuals.  Then there's some that were born bad.  Their seeds were withered or cracked from the beginning, and they grew but there's something wrong with them.  They are growing kinda lopsided or they have poor root structure.  Something's just not right about them.

It's the same damn way with humans.  Something that really irritates me is people that say that society "causes" people to develop into retards like him.  I go back to my forest analogy.  Society can have an effect on a person no doubt, but it's all in how you react to it, and that goes back to how strong of a seed you were from the beginning.

To put it in perspective, I've seen kids from Highland Park (the richest white community in DFW) shoot themselves in the head in depression (weaklings).  In contrast, I've seen child rape victims (some abused by their own parents) own their own business later in life and raise families with perfectly normal kids.  It's all based upon how strong of a seed you are.

...and that kid was not strong.  Not even a little.  Good riddance.
« Last Edit: May 31, 2014, 06:05:50 AM by ex »
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Offline 2d

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Re: Mass Murderers
« Reply #25 on: May 31, 2014, 08:34:54 AM »
you display a fair argument here ex, but in today's world, a person could look at a plant thats weak, and tie its stem to a stick to give it support, or go out of ones way to water the plant, or feed it miracle grow. all im saying is, never discount what your efforts could do to change someone elses life for the better.
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Offline fdrjk

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Re: Mass Murderers
« Reply #26 on: May 31, 2014, 08:48:38 AM »
The kids who shot up Columbine were fucking pussies. They had a whole group that always hung out/ did stuff together, not to mention they were both good enough friends to agree on shooting up their goddamn school. Isolation, hopelessness, are main causes of depression and suicide, and on top of that, they were fucking seniors! Two more months, and they would have been out of school and wouldn't have to deal with anyone.
« Last Edit: May 31, 2014, 08:59:39 AM by MCS_FaderJok0 »
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Offline fdrjk

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Re: Mass Murderers
« Reply #27 on: May 31, 2014, 08:59:04 AM »
Also, when someone's depressed, that doesn't mean they're weak and society is better off without them. I would place more blame on the people around suicide victims than the victim himself.

Why do you think people are prosecuted for not offering help during a suicide?

 :raincloud:
« Last Edit: May 31, 2014, 09:08:24 AM by MCS_FaderJok0 »
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Re: Mass Murderers
« Reply #28 on: October 02, 2015, 12:10:09 AM »
Another Mass murderer decides to shit on innocent people.....


In one of the deadliest of a series of school shootings that have become violently familiar across the U.S., a gunman opened fire at a community college in southwestern Oregon on Thursday morning, killing at least nine and injuring seven others before dying in a shootout with police.

The massacre at Umpqua Community College in this rural lumber town began when the assailant, armed with three handguns and an assault rifle, stormed Snyder Hall and started firing, asking students about their religion as he attacked.


http://www.latimes.com/nation/la-na-nn-oregon-community-college-shooting-20151001-story.html
...........


Obviously this guy lost his mind, or was brainwashed into thinking ISIS was breeding within his community college or that the devil was alive and well...

Anyhow, President Obama came out tonight and stated gun reform needed to happen:

<span data-s9e-mediaembed="youtube" style="display:inline-block;width:100%;max-width:640px"><span style="display:block;overflow:hidden;position:relative;padding-bottom:56.25%"><iframe allowfullscreen="" scrolling="no" style="background:url(https://i.ytimg.com/vi/zui4SIKvrd0/hqdefault.jpg) 50% 50% / cover;border:0;height:100%;left:0;position:absolute;width:100%" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/zui4SIKvrd0"></iframe></span></span><br /><a href="https://www.youtube.com/v/zui4SIKvrd0" target="_blank" class="new_win">https://www.youtube.com/v/zui4SIKvrd0</a>



My opinion is that in 2015, with everyone still in a dog eat dog world, we need the 2nd amendment and the right to bear arms. Aside from the fact that disarming a populace lays the foundation for fascism, everyone still believes and thinks differently...and everyone is still in an imbalanced economy. 

I do not want government telling me that i cannot own a gun. i want the right to defend myself against a looney by any means necessary. Hell i would say that the right to own a tank should be rethought. Im not sure what the solution is though.... if you put armed security in the schools, the mass murderer would just shoot them first...

I think faculty should be armed along with security guards. Pay the professors a little less, --they are milking the student loan system as it is...

Either that or do nothing....... but do not take away the 2nd amendment.


Anyhow, just wanted to throw this out there because another idiot lost his marbles.

But my heart goes out to those innocent people. sad sad sad
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Offline beanz

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Re: Mass Murderers
« Reply #29 on: October 02, 2015, 05:18:59 AM »
Everyone should just get along - peace n' harmony - like that song Imagine By J. Lennon    :yuck:    - 'Imagine no possessions, I wonder if you can?'  He probably couldn't, not living in one of his million pound mansions at the time.   :humm:

Anyway, they should play nice games, such as Q2     :headbang:     Our main objective is not to kill, erm. OK it is and the best two ways are either depleted uranium slugs (Rail Gun) through the head or to splatter players by using a green sphere of energy (bfg) - the more splatters the better!  Erm.  just all get along n' stuff, yeah!?     :razzberry:

bean$   :evilgrin:
« Last Edit: October 02, 2015, 06:35:40 AM by beanz »
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