Why I'm an Atheist

[|iR|Focalor]

Surely not that hard to understand???

From what I read in your initial post, you seem to understand "God" as being only the way "God" is described in the Holy Bible. Other cultures in other time periods have had their gods who intentionally did all the spiteful malevolent things that you describe. All I'm saying is that maybe your real issue is with Christianity and not with religion in general since the only attributes you mentioned "God" possessing were those found in the Holy Bible.

From what I can tell, a lot of people only want to debate "religion" because it makes them feel more secure about their own or makes them feel superior to someone else. So many aren't doing it for intellectual stimulation since it becomes quite obvious after 60 seconds that they aren't willing to be open minded about it. It degenerates into a situation where person A is attacking person B for having a ridiculous set of beliefs and person B is charged with the futile task of proving to person A that it isn't complete bullshit. It's just a waste of time. When I was younger, I used to think that debating religion was interesting. I've finally come to realize that it's boring and stupid. I'll never change someone else's mind about religion (nor would I really want to), and they'll never change mine. It would be far more productive to simply learn about different religions, enjoy that small bit of entertainment I get from gaining that knowledge, form my own opinion about the validity of that religion, and then keep it to myself. If you go much further beyond that, then you're starting to crusade on behalf of one viewpoint. Might as well become an ordained minister of whatever it is you espouse. No one likes to be told they're wrong about everything. And that's what the overwhelming majority of religious debates become: One person making a statement and then someone else saying, "Nope, it's not that way, you're completely wrong. I believe it's this way, and I'm right."

[Acer]

I guess I'm open to anything except to some atheists who just put the blame on God (a concept in which they don't believe...) for every bad thing that is happening. But what is A god in general? Basicly anything can become your god and be as real to you as any other god. Everyone interprets things like bible books differently so I don't think there's just one concept of God. (That's why I don't like to refer to the bible when talking to non-religious people.)

I doubt you'll find a secular humanist who would begrudge someone comfort on their deathbed.

Oh I doubt that too, but what could the secular humanist in your example possibly say to comfort someone on their deathbed, without sounding remotely religious?

I find it rather a relief to be free of the idea of being under constant surveilance by a supernatural dictator who can convict me of thought crime.

Is this really a humanist's idea of religion..? If our awareness of good and evil is indeed rooted in the nature of man, don't you think that it's impossible to ever be free of that feeling? That doesn't go away with religion.

I think the objections you mention begin to occur when people's private religious beliefs begin to affect public policy--for  example, the Catholic church preaching that condom use is a sin in AIDS afflicted sub-saharan Africa; or when somone tries to ban stem cell research on the basis that a clump of 150 cells has a "soul".

I understand and share those objections, but that's not at all what I meant by "atheists object to giving people "false hope" in hard situations." And I put false hope in quotes because the jury is still out on that one.

Tubby I assure you that I don't think humanists have no sense of compassion or morality. In fact it wouldn't surprise me if they have more heart than a lot of drilled religious people. You know, when I'm going through difficult times in my life I often wonder how someone else who hasn't been taught about God (or decided to stop believing) would deal with that situation and if they constantly feel a void. I'm sorry if I come across as a typical "holier than thou" person but please don't think a religious person is taking the easy way out or indirectly call them fools for keeping their hopes up. It's just as hard as viewing things as they are because there are always doubts and questions.

[|iR|Focalor]

what could the secular humanist in your example possibly say to comfort someone on their deathbed, without sounding remotely religious?

Are you in pain? Here, have some morphine. Are you worried about what will happen to your family? Here, let's get you a life insurance policy with a bitchin' payout. Personally, I'd appreciate someone saying that to me a lot more than someone saying, "Have you made your peace with God? Have you confessed your sins? Well here, you're fixing to die, lets think about all of the horrible shit you did in life and why you should regret it right before you die."

I find it rather a relief to be free of the idea of being under constant surveilance by a supernatural dictator who can convict me of thought crime.

Is this really a humanist's idea of religion..? If our awareness of good and evil is indeed rooted in the nature of man, don't you think that it's impossible to ever be free of that feeling? That doesn't go away with religion.

I suppose it depends on the individual as to how they personally define "good" and "evil". To a psychopath, good is killing 10 people every week. One of those 10 people fighting back and killing him would be considered evil. Ideas of good and evil in a social setting are what creates the laws of the land. Nevertheless, individuals still have their own ideas about what "good" laws are "evil" laws to them, and they disregard them from time to time.

[Tubby]

what could the secular humanist in your example possibly say to comfort someone on their deathbed, without sounding remotely religious?

Good question Acer.

The fact that you asked it speaks volumes about your own worldview. Do you really think you need to resort to the intercession of a supernatural entity in order to comfort someone who is dying / in fear / pain / grief or whatever? Why can't you do that as a simple human being? Why do you need to involve supernatural forces and beliefs to do this? I'm sure any person who is suffering from any of the above would appreciate you more as a simple friend who can appreciate what they're going through without having to resort to a discourse of your preconcieved religious doctrine and dogma.

[Tubby]

I'll never change someone else's mind about religion (nor would I really want to), and they'll never change mine.

Focalor, I'm not trying to change your mind. I would really just like you to understand and accept athiests / humanists for our beliefs as we understand and accept (but disagree with) yours.

I think the whole debate around atheism & theism is pertinent in both a theological & academic sense, but that doesn't mean we can't discuss / debate it as friends 

[|iR|Focalor]

I would really just like you to understand and accept athiests / humanists for our beliefs as we understand and accept (but disagree with) yours.

HAHA! Yeah, maybe one day me and atheists will learn to get along.

You have no idea why that's funny, but that's okay. You know what else is kinda funny? When some people want to say they're atheist, they still insist on bringing up "religion", "understanding", and "acceptance". The reason for being atheist is because you don't understand or accept religion. You deny the effects and existence of religion. So why dwell on it and give it the power you deny that it has by labeling yourself an atheist unless you're really just an anti-Christian?

Maybe you even agree with that. If so, here's a little more to blow your mind. Atheists can also be religious. Religion is nothing more than dogma and reverence towards something, whether that something be a deity, an idol/symbol, or a set of ideas.

[Tubby]

Religion is nothing more than dogma and reverence towards something, whether that something be a deity, an idol/symbol, or a set of ideas.

Wow, that's a powerful thought Focalor.

But it's interesting that you don't extend that thought to people who don't believe in 'your' particular idol, symbol, or set of ideas.

[quadz]

I guess I'm open to anything except to some atheists who just put the blame on God (a concept in which they don't believe...) for every bad thing that is happening.

Indeed, for an atheist to "blame god" would seem inescapably oxymoronic.

So I don't see it as atheists blaming god (which makes no sense) but rather as highlighting inconsistencies in a popular concept of god.

I'm reminded of the George Carlin rant, where he says, "Religion has actually convinced people that there's an invisible man living in the sky who watches everything you do, every minute of every day. And the invisible man has a special list of ten things he does not want you to do. And if you do any of these ten things, he has a special place, full of fire and smoke and burning and torture and anguish, where he will send you to live and suffer and burn and choke and scream and cry forever and ever 'til the end of time! But He loves you."

I.e. not blaming god, but definitely highlighting the absurdities of a particular concept of god.

I doubt you'll find a secular humanist who would begrudge someone comfort on their deathbed.

Oh I doubt that too, but what could the secular humanist in your example possibly say to comfort someone on their deathbed, without sounding remotely religious?

Well if it were me lying there dying, the absolute last thing I'd want to hear would be a bunch of religious gobbledygook about being 'saved' or we'll meet again in heaven, or whatever.  I think I'd prefer to spend a few last moments with close friends and family, and that's it.  No make-believe needed.

I've never fully understood why many people are so obsessed with death--it's the dying part that bothers me.  Death is a non-issue, as I won't be there to worry about it.

I find it rather a relief to be free of the idea of being under constant surveilance by a supernatural dictator who can convict me of thought crime.

Is this really a humanist's idea of religion..? If our awareness of good and evil is indeed rooted in the nature of man, don't you think that it's impossible to ever be free of that feeling? That doesn't go away with religion.

Ah, I didn't mean to suggest eliminating one's conscience, or one's sense of right and wrong.

Does this explanation help?  
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dbhFXpI8DHA

For me it's a relief there's not a shred of evidence to support the existence of the sort of totalitarian god described in the bible.

If we're not talking about a biblical god, but rather some kind of impersonal prime mover, like the god so big he doesn't care whether or not you capitalize his name
the god so big he doesn't care whether or not you capitalize his name, then, the existence of that sort of god wouldn't depress me.  But I find the biblical god extremely unappealing as a concept.


Regards,

quadz

[|iR|Focalor]

Religion is nothing more than dogma and reverence towards something, whether that something be a deity, an idol/symbol, or a set of ideas.

Wow, that's a powerful thought Focalor.

But it's interesting that you don't extend that thought to people who don't believe in 'your' particular idol, symbol, or set of ideas.

Extend what thought? See, the whole point of you making this thread is so that you can argue with people who you think are christians. Apparently you think I am one. You're barking up the wrong tree. You must be pretty young. I've seen lots of young people who love to involve themselves in what they call "religious debates" which is nothing more than them proclaiming their own beliefs and never listening to anyone elses viewpoint. They tend to think they do society a service by imparting their religious revelations to them. I used to do the same shit when I was a wee little Focalor. Since then I've come to realize that I have just about more than I can handle when I mind my OWN business therefore I have no business minding someone elses.

Am I wrong? Then tell me in your own words why you decided this thread would be a great idea?

[Tubby]

tell me in your own words why you decided this thread would be a great idea?

Okay.

1. It's generating discussion around the acceptance (or otherwise) of atheism and humanism.

2. It's challenging preconcieved notions around the existance of a god.

3. It's asking some hard and basic questions about life.

4. It's getting people to think about things for themselves, instead of referring everything that's wrong in the world to some primitive, supernatural, and fanciful deity.

Is that enuff for you focalor?

[Tubby]

Tubby I assure you that I don't think humanists have no sense of compassion or morality. In fact it wouldn't surprise me if they have more heart than a lot of drilled religious people. You know, when I'm going through difficult times in my life I often wonder how someone else who hasn't been taught about God (or decided to stop believing) would deal with that situation and if they constantly feel a void. I'm sorry if I come across as a typical "holier than thou" person but please don't think a religious person is taking the easy way out or indirectly call them fools for keeping their hopes up. It's just as hard as viewing things as they are because there are always doubts and questions.

No prob Acer

As an atheist I probably have just as many doubts and questions as you! Being an atheist doesn't mean we have all the answers by any means. All it means is that we tend to look at things from a realistic - as opposed to a supernatural - perspective.

Don't feel bad about "keeping your hopes up". Believe it or not, you can be an atheist and still have hopes and dreams!!

[Tubby]

Anyway, try explaining this as an act of your loving god:


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P1JxXzVMdyE&feature=related

Was he asleep on the job? Or did he just not give a fuck about the people who died?

I would love some answers around this - but I don't think I'm going to get any.... Because god works in mysterious and wonderful ways, right?

Yes, when innocent people die we simply put it down to god's wonderful plan.

[Whirlingdervish]

god doesn't like some people. people who claim otherwise are just people making claims.


the "explain this, because it proves your god isn't real" line of reasoning is inherently flawed since any attributes of God were first described by men to other men.

Any failure of a God to live up to those specific man-made attributes can be just as easily ascribed to Man's failure at describing God accurately.

God could be large, purple, fly around, have one eye, and eat people. If we claim that HE HAS TO BE all these things, then all that could be disproven when someone says "well there's no evidence he's ever eaten anyone" is our claims, not the existence of a God.

[|iR|Focalor]

tell me in your own words why you decided this thread would be a great idea?

Okay.

1. It's generating discussion around the acceptance (or otherwise) of atheism and humanism.

2. It's challenging preconcieved notions around the existance of a god.

3. It's asking some hard and basic questions about life.

4. It's getting people to think about things for themselves, instead of referring everything that's wrong in the world to some primitive, supernatural, and fanciful deity.

Is that enuff for you focalor?

Yeah, exactly like I said, it's YOU making yourself feel important and superior by enlightening everyone else to the gospel of atheism. You don't give a rat's ass about what anyone else says, you're here to talk and preach, not to listen. In short, you're only here to troll christians and feed your ego by talking down to people. The title of the thread says in a roundabout way what this thread was intended for. And then you have the unmitigated gall to call me out for lack of understanding and acceptance? Fuck you, buddy. I like you less and less with every thread you post in. Not because you're an atheist. Not because you're a christian. But because you're an obtuse visioned moron.

[BIG DICK RICK]

I'm reminded of the George Carlin rant, where he says, "Religion has actually convinced people that there's an invisible man living in the sky who watches everything you do, every minute of every day. And the invisible man has a special list of ten things he does not want you to do. And if you do any of these ten things, he has a special place, full of fire and smoke and burning and torture and anguish, where he will send you to live and suffer and burn and choke and scream and cry forever and ever 'til the end of time! But He loves you."

ROFL...god I miss that fucker...BUT HE LOVES YOU, ahahahaha.....couldn't agree with george carlin more, half the damn time.