Why I'm an Atheist

[haunted]

God exists, his planet is a part of the star system kolob. Look it up.

[reaper]

God exists, his planet is a part of the star system kolob. Look it up.

Please see:
http://lmgtfy.com/?q=star+system+kolob

it doesn't exist.

In Mormonism, Kolob is a star or planet mentioned in the Book of Abraham as being nearest to the throne or residence of God.
Several Mormon authors have attempted to locate Kolob in modern astronomy. These speculative efforts have no acceptance outside of Mormonism.

 

[quadz]

evolution left unchecked does not care about morals, now we dictate the evolution, how convenient.

Ya skipped a few steps there, Skippy.

how so? 

Evolution doesn't care about anything.  It's a partly non-random process, but it doesn't proceed according to any goal or plan.  (Putting aside any claims that some supernatural agency is actively tinkering with it.)

A web search for terms like "evolution morality" or "evolution altrusim" will reveal numerous papers and studies documenting research conducted on the subject of how the evolution of moral intuition can be compatible with the concept of the "fittest" animal in terms of selection pressure.

But I must concede that I'm increasingly disinclined to do your basic research for you anymore in these threads, as it has been my experience that you will unfailingly place your personal intuition above the results of any number of scientifically conducted studies.

It doesn't help that you appear unwiling to put in the effort to form a cogent thesis, leaving the reader to try to interpolate and transform statements like, "evolution left unchecked does not care about morals, now we dictate the evolution" into some kind of argument on your behalf.

My translation was as follows:

  A. evolution, as a process, is inherently amoral
  B. humans are capable of contravening strict evolutionary pressures, via, for example the use of contraception or sun-screen

Well, there's a lot missing between A and B.

Go thou, and google.


Regards,

quadz

[yahoo]

Google is God 

[Acer]

I've never fully understood why many people are so obsessed with death--it's the dying part that bothers me.  Death is a non-issue, as I won't be there to worry about it.

Well, either you know more than I do or that is something you believe. I'm not obsessed with death but what bothers me is the knowing that apparently someday it has to end - and the effect that that knowledge can have on your life. (Don't know if that's what you meant).
As to that nice George Carlin rant that you quoted: what this also shows is how easy it is to make it all sound so ridiculous and that as he got older it was definitely something that was on his mind. But don't forget that a clever speaker /comedian /entertainer can make anything sound ridiculous in a believable manner. Not every theist takes the bible literally and he was well aware of that. Instead of feeling enslaved for life by a supernatural dictator and guilty feelings you could also try to look at it as something beautiful, a crutch, a powerhouse, something that can make you feel less alone and lost. Trying to live by those Ten Commandments turns you into a slave? Most of it is ethics and common sense and many people already live by them without even being aware of it. It's just the god part that atheists can't accept - just like theists can't accept that there is no god.

Ah, I didn't mean to suggest eliminating one's conscience, or one's sense of right and wrong.
Does this explanation help? 
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dbhFXpI8DHA
For me it's a relief there's not a shred of evidence to support the existence of the sort of totalitarian god described in the bible.

Too bad there always has to be a sarcastic undertone in those speeches. To me it's all interesting but as usual it only raises more questions. How do you use this in your daily life? Where do you find the strength if you have to deal with drama in your life? In yourself, family or other people? And how do atheists explain the feeling of just being thankful for being alive and healthy, since there's no god to be thankful to?
They say that atheism tries to highlight inconsistencies in a popular concept of god and basicly states that only slaves believe in it. That there is "the wish to be slaves, the desire that there be an unchallengeable, tyrannical authority who can convict you of thought crime even after death". Only emphasize the guilt trip and scare tactics of some religions and compare a hereafter to a celestial North Korea and it becomes a stupid concept. Agreed. But no mention of the other side of the coin, that as long as you're open to it, religion and faith in a higher power can strengthen experiences of comfort, of hope, forgiveness and being loved. Religious people must all be meditation masters if they can meditate at such high level to find strength, comfort and peace within themselves.
Many people, mainly atheists seem to think that theists are foolish for allowing themselves to be restricted by an elusive concept. However you can only really experience guilt if you do things that go against your own beliefs. An adult with a matured conscience who is convinced in his heart that he is following the right path won't feel foolish or restricted at all.
Anyway it isn't very clear to me who atheists like Hitchens are really trying to convince that there simply cannot be a concept far too complex for our thoughts; those misguided religious people or themselves? I doubt that speeches like that are going to convert anybody that isn't already done with religion for whatever reason. But if you are then I can certainly see how that theory appeals to you; I say theory because just like religion that's still what it is.

[reaper]

Google is God  

compared to facebook

My translation was as follows:

  A. evolution, as a process, is inherently amoral
  B. humans are capable of contravening strict evolutionary pressures, via, for example the use of contraception or sun-screen

Well, there's a lot missing between A and B.

that doesn't address what I said. below would dictate there's more to life than just evolution.  take for example an alien environment, you won't find that in any of your studies.  doesn't really paint a good picture of evolution on the whole, yet evolution isn't the only thing at play

evolution left unchecked does not care about morals, now we dictate the evolution, how convenient.  another strike on the luck card (and yes god is above it).

 

 

[l0ckp1ck]

i have always been in 2 minds about whether or not god exists, on the one hand you think well you need a painter to create a painting in other words we could not have come from nothing, just all of a sudden appeared out of nowhere one day, cause something has to be there to create something in the first place. that is why i am not too sure about the big bang theory either, what caused the big gang? something had to have existed in the first place for it to happen, which leads me to think there is some sort of force that has always existed. It is hard to comprehend that when you really think about it. But then you watch clips like this
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6twSN8ZS_VA and you question if there is a god  is he good? or is he evil?

[quadz]

I've never fully understood why many people are so obsessed with death--it's the dying part that bothers me.  Death is a non-issue, as I won't be there to worry about it.

Well, either you know more than I do or that is something you believe.

Sorry if I was unclear.  I was attempting to convey that the concept of nonexistence, as applied to me someday, is something which gives me no worry.  (I may be disappointed in the prospect of a short life, but that's different to me than worrying about death itself.)

Granted I can't know if anything other than nonexistence happens 'after' death, and I wouldn't pretend to know; so if that's what it sounded like above, I hope this clarification helps.

As it happens, there are some reasons I tend to suspect that nonexistence is coincident with death.  For instance:

  - I have no memory of having existed before I was born (and certainly not prior to conception )

  - All evidence so far indicates our cognitive function is determined by the material structure of our brains.  Despite the lack of understanding of how the feeling or sense of consciousness is produced, we do know that as various regions of the brain are damaged, corresponding cognitive or perceptive functions are altered or impaired.

  - A botched lobotomy can leave a patient in a child-like state.

  - Split brain patients, where the communication between the two hemispheres has been severed, can exhibit different personality traits in each hemisphere, including one side believing in god, and the other not believing in god:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PFJPtVRlI64

As such, I'm not inclined to suppose our sense of 'self' could persist after our brain dies, since it often doesn't persist after brain injury.

To me it's all interesting but as usual it only raises more questions. How do you use this in your daily life? Where do you find the strength if you have to deal with drama in your life? In yourself, family or other people? And how do atheists explain the feeling of just being thankful for being alive and healthy, since there's no god to be thankful to?

Well, to turn that around, why would anyone need a god-concept in order to be amazed and humbled by this brief opportunity to experience and perceive the universe?

They say that atheism tries to highlight inconsistencies in a popular concept of god and basicly states that only slaves believe in it. That there is "the wish to be slaves, the desire that there be an unchallengeable, tyrannical authority who can convict you of thought crime even after death". Only emphasize the guilt trip and scare tactics of some religions and compare a hereafter to a celestial North Korea and it becomes a stupid concept. Agreed.

But that is a very, very popular concept of god.  (As the forwarded emails I frequently receive from some of my relatives would seem to attest. )

But no mention of the other side of the coin, that as long as you're open to it, religion and faith in a higher power can strengthen experiences of comfort, of hope, forgiveness and being loved.  Religious people must all be meditation masters if they can meditate at such high level to find strength, comfort and peace within themselves.

It's possible to meditate without believing anything on insufficient evidence.

Anyway it isn't very clear to me who atheists like Hitchens are really trying to convince that there simply cannot be a concept far too complex for our thoughts

Where did he try to convince anyone that no concept can be too complex for our brains to conceptualize?

I doubt that speeches like that are going to convert anybody that isn't already done with religion for whatever reason. But if you are then I can certainly see how that theory appeals to you; I say theory because just like religion that's still what it is.

If you mean the weak form of the term 'theory', essentially synonymous with 'speculation', then I suppose I'd agree.

Occasionally someone has insisted to me that atheism is "just another religion".  Which can't be true unless the term 'religion' is diluted to near-meaninglessness.  For instance, if atheism is a religion, then nonbelief in Santa Claus must also be a religion.

As I see it, the key to atheism (and nonbelief in Santa Claus) is that extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence.  The key to religious belief is precisely (and proudly) the opposite.


Regards,

quadz

[Tubby]

Evolution doesn't care about anything ... it doesn't proceed according to any goal or plan.  

Quadz, that simple statement probably explains exactly why people who believe in god have such a hard time understanding or accepting the concept of atheism.

They simply can't understand or accept that our lives may be controlled by forces which don't necessarily have our best interests at heart. Generally, human beings have an unyeilding urge to believe in something higher than themselves - something kind and benevolent - and the idea that the harsh forces which do in fact control our lives (evolution / survival of the fittest) are totally heartless and essentially malevolent is simply too much for them to bear.

That's understandable: We would all love to think there is some great benefactor in the sky looking out for us and watching over us, and I guess the essential difference between an atheist and a person of faith is our acceptance, or otherwise, of the fact that there isn't.

[Tubby]

i have always been in 2 minds about whether or not god exists, on the one hand you think well you need a painter to create a painting in other words we could not have come from nothing, just all of a sudden appeared out of nowhere one day, cause something has to be there to create something in the first place. that is why i am not too sure about the big bang theory either, what caused the big gang? something had to have existed in the first place for it to happen, which leads me to think there is some sort of force that has always existed. It is hard to comprehend that when you really think about it. But then you watch clips like this
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6twSN8ZS_VA and you question if there is a god  is he good? or is he evil?

Alpha, what you're asking presupposes that you're absolutely certain about what you're asking, and that you're asking the right questions.

For example, you suggest that for the big bang to happen 'something had to have existed in the first place for it to happen'.

You ask that question because that's YOUR personal experience of the way the universe works. As I stated in previous posts, maybe we're just not evolved enough yet to ask questions which go beyond our current understanding of the way we think the universe works.

Vis; back in the Dark Ages the most advanced intellectuals seriously debated how many angels could dance on the head of a pin...

Maybe in a few hundred years' time our own children will be looking back on the questions that we asked, and will be laughing just as hard as we were about them.

[quadz]

We would all love to think there is some great benefactor in the sky looking out for us and watching over us, and I guess the essential difference between an atheist and a person of faith is our acceptance, or otherwise, of the fact that there isn't.

You know this for a fact?

[quadz]

Occasionally someone has insisted to me that atheism is "just another religion".  Which can't be true unless the term 'religion' is diluted to near-meaninglessness.  For instance, if atheism is a religion, then nonbelief in Santa Claus must also be a religion.

I'd like to qualify what I wrote above, to the extent that I do recognize there can be a kind of dogmatic atheism, which can mirror the unquestioning faith of dogmatic religion.

[[BTF] Reflex]

We would all love to think there is some great benefactor in the sky looking out for us and watching over us, and I guess the essential difference between an atheist and a person of faith is our acceptance, or otherwise, of the fact that there isn't.

You know this for a fact?

I thought Voltaire settled this?

[Tubby]

We would all love to think there is some great benefactor in the sky looking out for us and watching over us, and I guess the essential difference between an atheist and a person of faith is our acceptance, or otherwise, of the fact that there isn't.

You know this for a fact?

I know nothing 'for a fact', quadz. This is also something that atheists tend not to share with religious people: Whereas religious people tend to insist that their beliefs are inherently correct, a true atheist will succumb himself or herself to the changing tide of contemporary scientific thought -understanding that contemporary scientific thought changes from day to day and year to year: The atheist understands and recognises this, and therefore doesn't bind himself or herself to any preconcieved notions of doctrine and dogma, but leaves him / herself open to the prospect of being proved wrong, and accepts this as an opportunity for learning and development.

[quadz]

I thought Voltaire settled this?

"If God did not exist, it would be necessary to invent him", or, "For God's sake, let me die in peace." ?