What sorts of maps do we require?

[adz1La]

I'm Gay.   

[Slayer :D]

Just my thoughts....

• The railgun ledge will be utterly dominated by a camper. With the mega and yellow armor right beside the rail and plenty of ledges to shoot down from, it will be almost impossible to kill him. He can easily see people coming up the stairs and rail them, and he can kill the people coming up the lift. When he hears it activate.
• Two nade packs are starting in the ground.
• One rocket pack made me .
• Also, it is possible to get jammed under the mega sloped roof if you crouch .
• I don't know if you intended it, but a good strafejump can get you the BFG without the lift being up. (I like this though!)

Nice work!

Nice work, and

[Barton]

Just my thoughts....

• The railgun ledge will be utterly dominated by a camper. With the mega and yellow armor right beside the rail and plenty of ledges to shoot down from, it will be almost impossible to kill him. He can easily see people coming up the stairs and rail them, and he can kill the people coming up the lift. When he hears it activate.

Yeah. There's three spawn points relatively close to each other. It looks like rape. Maybe you could obscure the view up at rail so that he can't see the spawns, or put chaingun, another mgun or hyperblaster in that open area so spawned players have something to annoying a camper at rail with.

• I don't know if you intended it, but a good strafejump can get you the BFG without the lift being up. (I like this though!)

Actually, you can either circle jump or strafe jump to make it to BFG. Try making your circle jump tighter and closer to the edge, and use more mouse movement for the strafe jump. It's not hard. If you can't make the jump, you can walk close to the edge and the elevator will come up, making the jump even easier.

Cool map so far. The scaling seems nice and I like how you can slide quickly up the edge of the stairs.

[peewee_RotA]

main point here... subtracting weapons to make the game play significantly different is not something unique to quake2 all quakes have their own form of balance and each one has some maps that play off that balance to change the play style of the game

Most of your points are wrong. For example, balanced weapons is roughly the opposite of having the dynamic weapons. If all weapons were equal in all situations then this goal could never be met. The more equal the weapons are, the further you get from this. Therefore quake 3, having been balanced into oblivion, has close to 0 weapon dynamic.

The fast weapon switching also significantly subtracts from this. In quake 2 you have to prepare for a situation because most weapons can kill you in the time that it takes to switch weapons. This expands and solidifies the difference in each situation.

As for maps that attempt to be different, there is a differenct between them existing and them working. Just play quake live CTF. In any given match all players go for a rocket and lightning combo. ALL other weapons are ignored, except rail in SOME maps under SOME circumstances. If you remove the LG, then the plasmagun takes it's place and is used almost exactly the same way. If you remove rocket, then plasma is used in place of rocket, and rail gets heavy. But other than those 3 situations, there is NO OTHER DYNAMIC. That's it. That's all. That's every fight that you will ever see.

As I said already, quake 1 is entirely about rockets. LG may be useful but it's removal has little bearing on gameplay. Rocket is never removed because q1 maps without rocket suck. End of dynamic weapons.

It's that simple.

[VaeVictis]

main point here... subtracting weapons to make the game play significantly different is not something unique to quake2 all quakes have their own form of balance and each one has some maps that play off that balance to change the play style of the game

Most of your points are wrong. For example, balanced weapons is roughly the opposite of having the dynamic weapons. If all weapons were equal in all situations then this goal could never be met. The more equal the weapons are, the further you get from this. Therefore quake 3, having been balanced into oblivion, has close to 0 weapon dynamic.

The fast weapon switching also significantly subtracts from this. In quake 2 you have to prepare for a situation because most weapons can kill you in the time that it takes to switch weapons. This expands and solidifies the difference in each situation.

As for maps that attempt to be different, there is a differenct between them existing and them working. Just play quake live CTF. In any given match all players go for a rocket and lightning combo. ALL other weapons are ignored, except rail in SOME maps under SOME circumstances. If you remove the LG, then the plasmagun takes it's place and is used almost exactly the same way. If you remove rocket, then plasma is used in place of rocket, and rail gets heavy. But other than those 3 situations, there is NO OTHER DYNAMIC. That's it. That's all. That's every fight that you will ever see.

As I said already, quake 1 is entirely about rockets. LG may be useful but it's removal has little bearing on gameplay. Rocket is never removed because q1 maps without rocket suck. End of dynamic weapons.

It's that simple.

quake3 has more dynamic to the weapons than youd like to think... if you try to use LG in the wrong circumstance or rail in the wrong place, you can get bounced around and punished with rockets easily, if you try to use rockets in the wrong place, lg or rail will tear you apart, and of course the rail is built for certain situations... you do get punished for poor weapon choice in quake3, mostly due to the easier accuracy and paper thin armor allowing deaths to come much easier... quake4 is the same way, and so is quakeworld... you can say that lg in quakeworld doesnt offer a huge variation in the play, but it does, the damage it deals out is INSANE and its knockback is crazy so its very effective in the right situations... yes quakeworld is mostly rockets, but its not ALL rockets, good players if they get too close with rockets will actually use the ssg and stuff like that, the balance of weapons in quakeworld gives a very interesting style that revolves around RL GL and LG but it is not limited to these weapons as you can even use weapons like the nailgun to deal some serious damage on an opponent rushing down a hallway causing them to both slow down and back off from a fight

in every quake there is a few iconic duel maps that play different with the absence of a heavily used weapon... you cant expect anyone who has ever seen a match in quakelive to believe that dm13 and tourney9 play like tourney7 and tourney6... you cant expect anyone who has some experience in quake4 to think that phrantic plays like placebo or monsoon... and even quakeworld has dm2 that plays much different due to several reasons but one of the big ones is the absence of the LG since its the only popular duel map that has removed the LG and its even seen as the best map for high ping players to have a chance against low ping players

and honestly if you have ever played cpma with the instant weapon switch... you STILL get punished for shit like bad weapon choice... slow weapon switching in quake2 helps to slow down the pace of the game and make you think about your fights mroe, but it doesnt exactly create any new dynamics it just puts more emphasis on some

[LedZep]

Beta 2.

http://torontoclan.info/files/quake2/maps/beta/zepdm1_beta2.bsp

Fixes:

 - 2 Grenades in wall causing errors.
 - Rocket pack in mid air (lol)
 - Some spawn point visibility through long distances
 - No spawn points see eachother
 - Limited the gap in the megahealth place, so that you no longer get stuck in a crouch (hopefully).

Added lotsa boxes (fixes the empty feel imo)!
Changed the ugly steep stairs into a nicer system of ramps (have a look at it).

P.S. Don't worry about that 'spawn point' underneath the rocketlauncher, it's just a tele destination (which is why one of the spawn points can see it).
And there's a chaingun behind a pile of boxes, in case some of you missed it

[peewee_RotA]

quake3 has more dynamic to the weapons than youd like to think... if you try to use LG in the wrong circumstance or rail in the wrong place, you can get bounced around and punished with rockets easily, if you try to use rockets in the wrong place, lg or rail will tear you apart, and of course the rail is built for certain situations... you do get punished for poor weapon choice in quake3, mostly due to the easier accuracy and paper thin armor allowing deaths to come much easier... quake4 is the same way, and so is quakeworld... you can say that lg in quakeworld doesnt offer a huge variation in the play, but it does, the damage it deals out is INSANE and its knockback is crazy so its very effective in the right situations... yes quakeworld is mostly rockets, but its not ALL rockets, good players if they get too close with rockets will actually use the ssg and stuff like that, the balance of weapons in quakeworld gives a very interesting style that revolves around RL GL and LG but it is not limited to these weapons as you can even use weapons like the nailgun to deal some serious damage on an opponent rushing down a hallway causing them to both slow down and back off from a fight

in every quake there is a few iconic duel maps that play different with the absence of a heavily used weapon... you cant expect anyone who has ever seen a match in quakelive to believe that dm13 and tourney9 play like tourney7 and tourney6... you cant expect anyone who has some experience in quake4 to think that phrantic plays like placebo or monsoon... and even quakeworld has dm2 that plays much different due to several reasons but one of the big ones is the absence of the LG since its the only popular duel map that has removed the LG and its even seen as the best map for high ping players to have a chance against low ping players

and honestly if you have ever played cpma with the instant weapon switch... you STILL get punished for shit like bad weapon choice... slow weapon switching in quake2 helps to slow down the pace of the game and make you think about your fights mroe, but it doesnt exactly create any new dynamics it just puts more emphasis on some

We're drifting and you've shifted topics completely. I'm not saying that there is no difference between weapons and that there is only 1 strategy per weapon. You could have 2 rocket launchers that shoot at varying speeds but are otherwise the same, and they'd use different strategies. That's not even close to up for debate.

What is up for debate is how much of a difference it makes for each games to change the weapon lineup. You've offered no actual argument or proof that any of the games I've mentioned have a history of gameplay changes based on weapon lineup. And especially, no proof or argument that any of these changes are desirable by the fan base. Also you are, AS ALWAYS, making a narrow focus on dueling without including any other game modes. Even if I suddenly agreed with you, it would only encompass a small portion of the actual community.

I challenge you to play a single deathmatch game of Quake live without rail, rocket, LG or plasma. Then do the exact same thing on a DM match in Quake 2. You'll put the Knee-Jerk reaction behind you and see my point. In fact we have quite a few players that prefer to play SSG and handgrenades only in some maps. You CANNOT get the same effect from any other game in the ID series when attempting this. There is a distinct and major difference, and denying it is just silly.


EDIT***

I did effectively create some really fun ZDaemon maps from the Chexquest IWAD which does not use the Double-Barrel shotty. So there is some hope for the game, but my modifications had a very narrow audience that refused to play without at least 2 barrels in their hands at all times.

[LedZep]

I did effectively create some really fun ZDaemon maps from the Chexquest IWAD which does not use the Double-Barrel shotty. So there is some hope for the game, but my modifications had a very narrow audience that refused to play without at least 2 barrels in their hands at all times.

In doom, the lightning gun is god. there is no other weapon that can amount to it. not even the stupid bfg :/

[VaeVictis]

quake3 has more dynamic to the weapons than youd like to think... if you try to use LG in the wrong circumstance or rail in the wrong place, you can get bounced around and punished with rockets easily, if you try to use rockets in the wrong place, lg or rail will tear you apart, and of course the rail is built for certain situations... you do get punished for poor weapon choice in quake3, mostly due to the easier accuracy and paper thin armor allowing deaths to come much easier... quake4 is the same way, and so is quakeworld... you can say that lg in quakeworld doesnt offer a huge variation in the play, but it does, the damage it deals out is INSANE and its knockback is crazy so its very effective in the right situations... yes quakeworld is mostly rockets, but its not ALL rockets, good players if they get too close with rockets will actually use the ssg and stuff like that, the balance of weapons in quakeworld gives a very interesting style that revolves around RL GL and LG but it is not limited to these weapons as you can even use weapons like the nailgun to deal some serious damage on an opponent rushing down a hallway causing them to both slow down and back off from a fight

in every quake there is a few iconic duel maps that play different with the absence of a heavily used weapon... you cant expect anyone who has ever seen a match in quakelive to believe that dm13 and tourney9 play like tourney7 and tourney6... you cant expect anyone who has some experience in quake4 to think that phrantic plays like placebo or monsoon... and even quakeworld has dm2 that plays much different due to several reasons but one of the big ones is the absence of the LG since its the only popular duel map that has removed the LG and its even seen as the best map for high ping players to have a chance against low ping players

and honestly if you have ever played cpma with the instant weapon switch... you STILL get punished for shit like bad weapon choice... slow weapon switching in quake2 helps to slow down the pace of the game and make you think about your fights mroe, but it doesnt exactly create any new dynamics it just puts more emphasis on some

We're drifting and you've shifted topics completely. I'm not saying that there is no difference between weapons and that there is only 1 strategy per weapon. You could have 2 rocket launchers that shoot at varying speeds but are otherwise the same, and they'd use different strategies. That's not even close to up for debate.

What is up for debate is how much of a difference it makes for each games to change the weapon lineup. You've offered no actual argument or proof that any of the games I've mentioned have a history of gameplay changes based on weapon lineup. And especially, no proof or argument that any of these changes are desirable by the fan base. Also you are, AS ALWAYS, making a narrow focus on dueling without including any other game modes. Even if I suddenly agreed with you, it would only encompass a small portion of the actual community.

I challenge you to play a single deathmatch game of Quake live without rail, rocket, LG or plasma. Then do the exact same thing on a DM match in Quake 2. You'll put the Knee-Jerk reaction behind you and see my point. In fact we have quite a few players that prefer to play SSG and handgrenades only in some maps. You CANNOT get the same effect from any other game in the ID series when attempting this. There is a distinct and major difference, and denying it is just silly.


EDIT***

I did effectively create some really fun ZDaemon maps from the Chexquest IWAD which does not use the Double-Barrel shotty. So there is some hope for the game, but my modifications had a very narrow audience that refused to play without at least 2 barrels in their hands at all times.

ffa just gets to a point of what you can get... so i dont even consider that worth arguing over...

however, in 1v1 i know for a FACT that each quake has a map that will remove weapons to change the style of play, just like you claim changing the weapons available on a quake2 map does... listing specific examples too

dm2 in quakeworld removes LG making the game play much less in your face and easier for high ping players to play out strategy

tourney4 in quake3/live removes LG making the game play into a more distanced fight kind of game

tourney9 in quakelive removes rail making it a really fast paced in your face kinda map relying on lots of spam and good LG

dm13 in quake3/live removes rail turning it into a tighter playing strategy and positioning kinda map as apposed to a (imo) very similar map like ztn where you get rail and can play the distance

phrantic in quake4 removes the rail making the game a lot less about finding those angle shots

just like you said... absence of a weapon, rail even being the example in most of them and the same one you were talking about for quake2, and the game plays differently

I did effectively create some really fun ZDaemon maps from the Chexquest IWAD which does not use the Double-Barrel shotty. So there is some hope for the game, but my modifications had a very narrow audience that refused to play without at least 2 barrels in their hands at all times.

In doom, the lightning gun is god. there is no other weapon that can amount to it. not even the stupid bfg :/

there is no LG in doom 

[LedZep]

there is no LG in doom 

what

[fdrjk]

there is no LG in doom 

what

*Plasma gun 

[LedZep]

Oh.

Nobody said anything about the second beta of the map. Final release it?

[console]

P.S. Don't worry about that 'spawn point' underneath the rocketlauncher, it's just a tele destination (which is why one of the spawn points can see it).

BTW, you can make the tele destination invisible if you want.

(Change "classname" "misc_teleporter_dest" to "classname" "info_notnull".)


Regards,

quadz

[LedZep]

BTW, you can make the tele destination invisible if you want.

(Change "classname" "misc_teleporter_dest" to "classname" "info_notnull".)


Regards,

quadz

Oh sick thanks for that tip. Making the tele dest invisible and finalizing the map then