sexual orientation and innate choice

[[BTF]Sigma]

NOOOOOOOO!!!!!!!!!!!

LOL I had to rinse my eyes with Bactine and I think it's finally gone.

[Art]

I CHOSE to heed the warning, thanks.
Ever wonder what % of the male prison population has butt sex?

[|iR|Focalor]

they just aren't interested in what they aren't interested in.   Not something that's just a trivial or whimsical choice.

That's kind of why I used the example of tastes in music. As the first article mentioned...

though they say other factors like social conditioning may be important.

I don't follow your point here. 

My point was that an individuals taste in music is conditioned also. Certain people in certain situations are more prone to predominately listen to certain kinds of music. Stimulus is presented, and if all the variables are favorable, a certain outcome is inevitable.

They can study the rates and stats all they want, but that alone will never convince me. That's why I used the term "scientific/medical"

Are you saying you refuse scientifically significant evidence, or are you saying the evidence isn't significant?

I'm saying that it's by and large based on collected statistics. Statistics do not always mean facts. Statistically speaking, a person who smokes 3 packs of filterless Camels a gay... I mean day ... will die of lung cancer. Sometimes, complications due to AIDS does it first. Statistics can be biased or inaccurate or inconclusive. Statistics are a good predictor, but they are usually not universal truths. The AIDS virus multiplies and mutates. This is not truth because we have collected data and pooled it all together and made pie charts predicting that it's the most probable explanation, it's true because we have empirically observed it. There is no name given to the "gay gene". But Paul Stanley is gay.

, I was hoping to read something based on actual observation of DNA components in tandem with the collected stats. THAT would be the fascinating part of it. Wouldn't it be cool if they could isolate some specific gene and alter it? Eventually we could develop a "gay vaccine" and make it lot easier for prisoners to pick up the soap.

Of course I disagree, since my motivation here is to argue that someone's sexual choice is their own business (as long as it doesn't hurt others etc..).  To me, the suggestion of "fixing people" sounds a bit like removing people's interest in alcohol at birth because of all the problems alcohol causes upon society.  Wait, the alcohol example actually does have a sadly true aspect while the gay example doesn't actually hurt anyone.  Go figure.

Hehe, I was being a facetious prick. Oh well, I thought it was funny anyway. Basically what I'd like to see is physical studies of the body and brain in relation to homosexuality. I've seen neurological studies conducted about why certain people are more prone to become habitual drug users and drug addicts. They found that certain types of people lacked a significant portion of brain physiology which was believed to allow individuals to weigh the consequences of their actions and/or delay gratification.

[|iR|Focalor]

Just to clarify, I'm not some homophobic redneck that is afraid of the world trying to turn me gay when I get a Pier 1 Imports catalog in the mail that I didn't order. Since I'm not gay, I'm not really all that concerned about legalizing gay marriage, I'm not going to go march around in front of City Hall about it. Still, I'm of the opinion that it SHOULD be legalized since there is not logical or rational explanation as to why it SHOULDN'T be legal. It makes all the sense in the world that it SHOULD be, especially since women are allowed to vote and blacks no longer have to use their own water fountains and sit in the back of the bus.

My point is that I will suspend belief in the opinion that homosexuality is a genetic trait until there is sufficient evidence to prove it. At this point, I'm of the opinion that it is an individuals "choice" and not a genetic trait. If some people prefer having sex with their own gender because of something genetic, then I'd like to also find the gene that determines what toppings I prefer on my pizza. Maybe if we could isolate all of these various genes that determines an individuals personality, we could eventually medically engineer the perfect woman - one that doesn't like to bitch and complain all the time, one that only needs 3 pairs of shoes at the most, and one that will continue to give blowjobs after the honeymoon.

[quadz]

My point is that I will suspend belief in the opinion that homosexuality is a genetic trait until there is sufficient evidence to prove it.

That would seem to imply you also doubt there's anything genetic responsible for heterosexual attraction?

At this point, I'm of the opinion that it is an individuals "choice" and not a genetic trait.

I think this is a misuse of the term 'choice'.  It seems clear that homosexuals are acting according to their true feelings of attraction, in exactly the same way heterosexuals are.

I've known since about kindergartern or first grade that I was attracted to girls.  Regardless of whether sexual orientation is partly genetic and partly affected by environment (as research seems to indicate), from a personal perspective there was never a feeling of 'choice' in the matter.

Why try to shoehorn the term 'choice' into a situation it seems so ill-suited to describe?

[|iR|Focalor]

That would seem to imply you also doubt there's anything genetic responsible for heterosexual attraction?

True. Maybe there is, maybe there isn't. I've yet to see anyone pinpoint where any animals instinctual actions reside. Speaking in terms of an animals instincts, that would make homosexuals genetically deficient since their natural instincts prevent them from propagating their own genes, wouldn't it? That's the same thing the Nazi's said about jews, homosexuals, and various other races anyway... so I'm going to go ahead and use this twisted brand of logic to call you a Nazi. God damn, I should be a criminal defense lawyer!

[|iR|Focalor]

Plus this one's great at lip syncing and dancing... I haven't seen a guy move so good unless they're on the Ballroom Dance team.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yhhBvhdfPV4&feature=related

Wow, I think we have a winner!!! That's even gayer than the Chris Crocker "Leave Britney Alone" video!

[quadz]

That would seem to imply you also doubt there's anything genetic responsible for heterosexual attraction?

True. Maybe there is, maybe there isn't. I've yet to see anyone pinpoint where any animals instinctual actions reside. Speaking in terms of an animals instincts, that would make homosexuals genetically deficient since their natural instincts prevent them from propagating their own genes, wouldn't it?

I'm sure we can take one step back and at least presume there is a genetic basis for sexual attraction, regardless of hetero- or homo-, right?

Regarding the question of genetic deficiencies as well as the question of whether we are likely to discover something like a 'gay gene' with a very specific and isolated function targeted specifically at gender orientation, the impression I've gotten from a number of talks by V.S. Ramachandran is that things happen in the brain often for much more indirect reasons.

Consider this fascinating talk by Ramachandran on grapheme → color synesthesia:

http://thesciencenetwork.org/programs/beyond-belief-enlightenment-2-0/v-s-ramachandran

Grapheme → color synesthetes are people who perceive certain letters and numbers as having a particular associated color.

First there were questions to be answered, such as, is this a real sensory phenomenon.  So tests were devised to determine that it is indeed real.

And then other questions, what is the neurological cause of this phenomenon (i.e. what is the neurological process in a fully developed brain that gives rise to this phenomenon), and also what is the reason that a brain develops with wiring such that a person ends up being a synesthete?

Further, why do the majority of synesthetes happen to also be people with artistic or musical abilities, or abilities in fields dealing especially with metaphor.

So... watch the video for the full story, but here's the relevant part with respect to why there might be a genetic basis for hetero/homosexual orientation without there being any such thing as a 'gay gene' targeted at that specific function.

The parts of the brain dealing with some aspects of grapheme and color recognition happen to be physically located next to one another.

And so the theory is, there's no 'synesthesia' gene.  But rather in this case, there's a sort of 'pruning gene' during the brain's development which is responsible for pruning connections between different brain areas.  If less pruning occurs, the brain is left with more cross-connections, leading to greater ability with metaphor, but also, if connections aren't pruned between the grapheme/color areas, you get some cross connections there that lead to sysesthesia...

The point being, we can have a very useful and necessary pruning gene which in itself is in no way targeted specifically at producing synesthesia.  Yet synesthesia may arise as a side effect of the operation of that gene.

Thus, I think we probably shouldn't be surprised if the genetic basis for sexual orientation turned out to be similarly tuned by the indirect effect of otherwise unrelated brain development processes, rather than any direct process targetd specifically at sexuality.

Anyway... pretty wild stuff, no?


Regards,

[QwazyWabbit]

That would seem to imply you also doubt there's anything genetic responsible for heterosexual attraction?

True. Maybe there is, maybe there isn't. I've yet to see anyone pinpoint where any animals instinctual actions reside. Speaking in terms of an animals instincts, that would make homosexuals genetically deficient since their natural instincts prevent them from propagating their own genes, wouldn't it? That's the same thing the Nazi's said about jews, homosexuals, and various other races anyway... so I'm going to go ahead and use this twisted brand of logic to call you a Nazi. God damn, I should be a criminal defense lawyer!

Godwin's Law.

Thread is officially dead.
Zeig Heil!

[[BTF]Dizzy]

Interesting!

Based on your reactions, it looks like you can't choose who repulses you, either?

WARNING - do NOT click the link Mya posted.   I wish I could "un-see" the first three seconds I saw.

I wholeheartedly agree... I turned it off before 5 seconds... and yes, you can't "un-see" that.

NOOOOOOOO!!!!!!!!!!!

LOL I had to rinse my eyes with Bactine and I think it's finally gone.

[myamagical]

I think he's cute, and awesome... and that video will help me get through finals week.

[Whirlingdervish]

perhaps you should moderate your consumption of crack then...

[quadz]

Interesting!

Based on your reactions, it looks like you can't choose who repulses you, either?

Probably not...

On the one hand, I suspect we were being a little bit arch in our comments... On the other hand, yeah, there was this move he makes about 0:04 ... i dunno, it struck me kind of like a metaphysical goatse.

[jägermonsta]

perhaps you should moderate your consumption of crack then...

 

[[BTF]Sigma]

Interesting!

Based on your reactions, it looks like you can't choose who repulses you, either?

WARNING - do NOT click the link Mya posted.   I wish I could "un-see" the first three seconds I saw.

I wholeheartedly agree... I turned it off before 5 seconds... and yes, you can't "un-see" that.

NOOOOOOOO!!!!!!!!!!!

LOL I had to rinse my eyes with Bactine and I think it's finally gone.

It's not who, it's what. That was horribly tacky and it's POP. POP should have died along with disco.