r1q2 and downloading maps

[[BTF]Jehar]

I was referring to http://www.dosbox.com/ , which is a dos emulator. That's the gpl program that got swindled

[console]

I was referring to http://www.dosbox.com/ , which is a dos emulator. That's the gpl program that got swindled

Ahhhh... OK.  Cool, I didn't know there was an actual program called dosbox.  I'm gonna download it and see if I can get QUAKETST.EXE to run under it (quake1 test... I love some of the sound effects in that.. )

Regarding GPL... Since id has GPL'd their game code, it is perfectly legit for their games to be bundled with other GPL software like dosbox... provided id or Valve release the source to any modifications they made to dosbox.

This is reportedly a response from one of the dosbox developers over all the bruhaha last August:

"Can you people just calm down already. It's been like what 1 or 2 days after this thing has been released and people are already bitching about legal action or damage payments. It's not like we're losing money or whatever, it's euhm free software. There's lot's of open source programs being used for commercial ends. Sure it's nice to be mentioned somewhere but even then there's no obligation to do so. GPL violations can easily be sorted out in time if they just add or remove the necessary files."


Regards,

[[BTF]Jehar]

It's cool that the dosbox crew are rolling with it that well, right on guys. It still rubs me the wrong way on principle, and makes Valve all the more icky overall.
To get back on topic, vortex: It sure looks like you have the demo version of the pak, though there's nothing inherently wrong with that. Getting a legal copy over a direct-download service (avoid steam though, ugh) shouldn't be too hard on your wallet. If you're less legit-minded than that, I'm sure you can get creative. It *is* odd that q2.exe would have the functionality of pak map downloads though.

[console]

To get back on topic, vortex: It sure looks like you have the demo version of the pak, though there's nothing inherently wrong with that. Getting a legal copy over a direct-download service (avoid steam though, ugh) shouldn't be too hard on your wallet. If you're less legit-minded than that, I'm sure you can get creative. It *is* odd that q2.exe would have the functionality of pak map downloads though.

vortex said he copied pak0 from his original q2 install cd, and it works now.

It's cool that the dosbox crew are rolling with it that well, right on guys. It still rubs me the wrong way on principle, and makes Valve all the more icky overall.

The only icky part from my point of view is if they didn't give the dosbox guys any credit in the documentation.  (It sounds like this may have been resolved shortly after the initial release.)

As a software developer, I have to stress that if I release code as GPL, and someone else integrates my GPL code into their GPL program... that is completely OK.  That is indeed the point of the GPL... If we didn't want it to work that way we would choose a different license when releasing our software.


Regards,

[QwazyWabbit]

By my count, there are 48 original maps in Q2. The first group of 45 is in pak0.pak with the others in pak1 and pak3 as listed in comments below.

static char *stockmaps[48] = {
   "base1", "base2", "base3", "biggun", "boss1",
      "boss2", "bunk1", "city1", "city2", "city3",
      "command", "cool1", "fact1", "fact2", "fact3",
      "hangar1", "hangar2", "jail1", "jail2", "jail3",
      "jail4", "jail5", "lab", "mine1", "mine2",
      "mine3", "mine4", "mintro", "power1", "power2",
      "security", "space", "strike", "train", "ware1",
      "ware2", "waste1", "waste2", "waste3", "q2dm1",
      "q2dm2", "q2dm3", "q2dm4", "q2dm5", "q2dm6",
      "q2dm7", "q2dm8", // pak1.pak
      "match1" //pak3.pak
};

There was a demo version of Q2 circulating at one time. I am not sure if it was official or not. I know several users showed up intermittently on servers and they didn't have certain maps. I remember one user was missing "mintro" in her demo, not sure how many other maps might have been missing as well.

[reaper]

I thought windows could already emulate a DOS like operating enviornment?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Windows_on_Windows

[The Happy Friar]

The only icky part from my point of view is if they didn't give the dosbox guys any credit in the documentation.  (It sounds like this may have been resolved shortly after the initial release.)

As a software developer, I have to stress that if I release code as GPL, and someone else integrates my GPL code into their GPL program... that is completely OK.  That is indeed the point of the GPL... If we didn't want it to work that way we would choose a different license when releasing our software.

I think the big kicker was that id stated, several times, they go after people legally who didn't follow the GPL rules.  The dosbox gpl rules wearn't: source code that id and/or valve modified wasn't provided.  Don't know if it ever way.  Also, id gave a GPL version of Q1,2 & 3 away.  you can still buy a non-GPL license for several thousand.  It's the exact same source that was released to game dev's & if you get the Q3A source you get the RTCW AI+code too ($10k I think).

As for Q2, I'd say instead of supporting Valve, buy Quake 4 SE that includes Q2 & the exp packs.  Or find it on e-bay.  It's only a $ or two now (IMHO, id is ripping us off whole-sale for software THEY consider obsolete.  Technically, you can get Q1, 100% GPL by getting any engine, the maps from romero's site & then use model/texture replacement packs.  Heck, even VU/Sierra only charge $20 for all the Space Quests or LSL's)

I just tested:  Quake 2 demo does NOT work with TS servers.  Why?  It's version 3.14.  So you install the 3.20 patch & BAM! instant download of anything it doesn't have, including pak0 assets.  I just started downloading the map on TS:vanilla (74.54.186.226:27912). 

IMHO, if id REALLY CARED about this they'd release a 3.21 patch to fix it, like they did with Q3A after people looked at the GPL code & found a serious flaw or two that should of been fixed.

[console]

By my count, there are 48 original maps in Q2. The first group of 45 is in pak0.pak with the others in pak1 and pak3 as listed in comments below.

Yeah... Historically originally Q2 only shipped with the single player maps.  dm1-dm8 were part of the 3.12 point release... match1 was in 3.15.


Regards,

[console]

I think the big kicker was that id stated, several times, they go after people legally who didn't follow the GPL rules.  The dosbox gpl rules wearn't: source code that id and/or valve modified wasn't provided.  Don't know if it ever way. 

According to Qbix, one of the authors of DOSBox, regarding the version distributed over Steam: "The customized version of DOSBox is the normal 0.70 with a small loader. No changes to sourcecode of DOSBox were made." [1]

Thus, if id/Valve made no changes, they have no source to release.  The discussion boards go on for pages, though, with arguments as to whether the source for programs like the "small loader" should also have been released.

I personally find the GPL a bit fuzzy in situations like merely loading another program and executing it, as opposed to dynamically linking with it... For example, "mere aggregation of another work not based on the Program with the Program (or with a work based on the Program) on a volume of a storage or distribution medium does not bring the other work under the scope of this License."  It's a pretty small step from aggregation on a storage medium, to "loader". [2]

Dunno... (I Am Not A Lawyer )

I just tested:  Quake 2 demo does NOT work with TS servers.  Why?  It's version 3.14.  So you install the 3.20 patch & BAM! instant download of anything it doesn't have, including pak0 assets.  I just started downloading the map on TS:vanilla (74.54.186.226:27912). 

IMHO, if id REALLY CARED about this they'd release a 3.21 patch to fix it, like they did with Q3A after people looked at the GPL code & found a serious flaw or two that should of been fixed.

Actually, id released 3.21 ages ago.

But anyway, I'm pretty sure the 3.21 source code has a comment in there like "refuse to download from pak files".  I believe this was removed in r1q2.  (Our servers run r1q2ded.)


Regards,



[1] http://vogons.zetafleet.com/viewtopic.php?t=16285
[2] http://www.gnu.org/licenses/old-licenses/gpl-2.0.txt

[The Happy Friar]

Actually, id released 3.21 ages ago.

Ok ok... 3.22 or 3.211...    Whatever!   

But anyway, I'm pretty sure the 3.21 source code has a comment in there like "refuse to download from pak files".  I believe this was removed in r1q2.  (Our servers run r1q2ded.)

Good reason it should of been removed (then you can't download from mods).  Must be required to be "0" on both sides of the coin (client + server).  It seems silly (in hindsight) to leave something to not download from pak's in the server code only when all other downloads are client+server & if they don't match you can't download.  I think I've heard this years ago though (late 90's) but right now I'm to lazy to make my own local Q2 server via quake2.exe & test.  The Q2 folder is to damn big to pick though!

EDIT: back on the subject of VU/Sierra, they included dosbox with the Space Quake & LSL collections.  And reference in the manual's.  And instructions on how to use it via readme.  And link to the dosbox site.  And saying that's the version they tested with, but you can change to a different version if you want. 

[console]

Good reason it should of been removed (then you can't download from mods). 

Not really.  It just means, for non-proprietary mods, the server operator just has to unpack the mod's .pak files into the server maps/textures/envs, etc. folders.  Then downloads for mods would work.

I suspect it was rather intentional that id disallowed downloading maps from .pak files... so that maps for proprietary mods did not get downloaded.  (Like id's single player maps, xatrix maps, etc.)

Here.s the relevant 3.21 source: sv_user.c / SV_BeginDownload_f()

   if (!sv_client->download
      // special check for maps, if it came from a pak file, don't allow
      // download  ZOID
      || (strncmp(name, "maps/", 5) == 0 && file_from_pak))
   {
      Com_DPrintf ("Couldn't download %s to %s\n", name, sv_client->name);
      if (sv_client->download) {
         FS_FreeFile (sv_client->download);
         sv_client->download = NULL;
      }

      MSG_WriteByte (&sv_client->netchan.message, svc_download);
      MSG_WriteShort (&sv_client->netchan.message, -1);
      MSG_WriteByte (&sv_client->netchan.message, 0);
      return;
   }



In r1q2, the download code has been modified extensively.  Security holes and bugs have been fixed, etc.  However, the part about refusing to download from .pak files has been removed.


Regards,

[The Happy Friar]

another thing that's confusing about the whole "Dosbox for old  id games" (why won't the damn horse DIE!  DIE HORSE DIE!!!!) thing is that they didn't NEED to: there's a TON of GREAT GPL engines out there for Wolf3D, Doom 1/2 & Q1.  There was no reason to even use dosbox.  They could of included a newer engine that gave pretty images or the original images, AND full in-menu controls, AND full internet support.  Would of been the same GPL license as Dosbox, but it could of helped out the people they gave the source to.  go figure.  :/

[[BTF]Jehar]

Considering that most of the gpl engines are... well, gpl, then I'm sure that some of the client devs wouldn't be as understanding or lenient as the dosbox guys were....

[The Happy Friar]

i wouldn't say that.  Some of the GPL engines have been used by GPL game makers.  Nobody really complained.  At least the dev's never did.  The response was "they're following the GPL, nothing we can do".

[console]

Considering that most of the gpl engines are... well, gpl, then I'm sure that some of the client devs wouldn't be as understanding or lenient as the dosbox guys were....

I still feel there's something very different in how you and I understand the GPL, Jehar.

In my understanding of the GPL, the only scenario that would require understanding or leniency is if someone violates the terms of the license.  From what I've gathered from posts by the DOSBox developers, the only violation was the omission of two files: COPYING.txt file (which is simply the verbatim text of the GPL v2 license); and a file with copyright information about DOSBox.  The latter file doesn't seem to even exist in the DOSBox distribution.  So id/Valve would probably need to grab the copyright info from the source code, and copy it to a .txt file.

But anyway--apart from those omissions, which were rapidly remedied, everything else seems pretty kosher.  Thus the amount of understanding or leniency required on anybody's part is fairly small-to-nonexistent.

another thing that's confusing about the whole "Dosbox for old  id games" (why won't the damn horse DIE!  DIE HORSE DIE!!!!) thing is that they didn't NEED to: there's a TON of GREAT GPL engines out there for Wolf3D, Doom 1/2 & Q1.  There was no reason to even use dosbox.  They could of included a newer engine that gave pretty images or the original images, AND full in-menu controls, AND full internet support.

Haha.  Technically that's 100% correct.  The GPL is precisely what makes that possible.   But can you imagine the amount of grief they'd have gotten for doing that?  (Edit: and I mean grief from the general public, not the developers who actually^(*) know what they're doing when they license their software.)





(*) ...supposedly? presumably? ostensibly?