Camping or controlling a map

[peewee_RotA]

Is camping somehow now a legitimate strategy? I think I'm in some sort of twilight zone episode.

I feel like 15 years of deathmatch history has just been eaten by a blackhole of pure lame.

[[BTF]MangyMutt]

Please define "camping".

WOOF!

[[BTF]Defiant!]

One can control the map without camping.  For example, on q2dm7, one might get the Red Armor (RA) every time without ever camping.  You simply be sure you round trip back to the RA every 20 seconds.  This can be frustrating for other players, but that frustration is simply a matter of a player being good.  Should one NOT get the armor every 20 seconds?  I don't think there is any basis for complaint.

However, an example of camping is, hiding out at the railgun (RG) room on q2dm4.  This can be frustrating for other players.  Some players consider it all well and good, others see it as poor style at best. 

A more debatable camping example is standing on the ring area on q2dm1 railing people -- I think this is also camping, but camping in plain sight which isn't as egregious. 

just my 2/c

[peewee_RotA]

My examples of camping involve mostly Marics and I blame him entirely for them, however those that use his map for this purpose are not innocent. (Ruskprick made one map but he's got a good enough record i can let it go)

#1 is Rooftop serenade in which Mangymutt stood on the highest ground for 10 minutes straight making sure nobody else could pick up a weapon. In most maps made with more than half a brain cell: there are no positions that can see the entire map, none of those positions contain a red armor, and none of those positions have health as well.

Mangy mutt then lied about camping the entire game which is what set me off.

#2 This is a CRU story. This involved wulfhere and the same bonehead mapping mistakes. There's an area with only 2 difficult enterances which houses cells for the easily aquired BFG, Ammo for the railgun, The Railgun, Red Armor, and health.

[ToxicMonkey^MZC]

I agree camping is lame and pathetic.  I despise CRU (Campers R Us) for actively promoting it as their favourite, indeed their only tactic.  They have 3 or 4 maps that they have practised their camping spots on and always vote them on the mutant server.

I have to disagree with your opinion that it is the mapper's fault.  A player makes a concious decision to camp or not to camp.  Just because a map provides an opportunity  for a camper does not mean you HAVE to camp.  btw after giving it some thought I cannot think of a spot in Rustic Arena (great map) that would make a good camping spot.  There is enough armour/weapons scattered around to mount a credible attack on any rooftop 'camper'.

On the whole though camping is fucking shameful although sometimes it can depend on the player.  If it is a new player who isn't very good or new to the game then he is easily turfed out from a camp spot and he will learn not to keep doing it (hopefully).

The really annoying campers are the so-called 'good' players who channel their skills in this direction.  This just makes the game shit for the rest of the players and I have no respect for these people whether they be CRU or BTF or whatever.

A legitimate tactic in Q2?  Inasmuch as it does not break any game rules and it is not hacking then you would have to say yes, it is a legitimate way to play.  In reality though camping is a very weak, poor way to frag - we all know this.

[10zx]

1st step to becoming better.. "campers are predictable".

[reaper]

last I checked defending areas, and killing the opponent was part of the game.

[DWxchzrles]

last I checked defending areas, and killing the opponent was part of the game.

you are correct

just defending a particular area of a map in team play

ffa is a different story

[haunted]

Legit campers can only own newbs. Get in your opponents mind: he's sitting their being a little bitch camping. You already know that he sucks enough that he has to resort to this measure so use your ears, be smart, and make him your puppet. Campers are always the first to run.

[peewee_RotA]

Legit campers can only own newbs. Get in your opponents mind: he's sitting their being a little bitch camping. You already know that he sucks enough that he has to resort to this measure so use your ears, be smart, and make him your puppet. Campers are always the first to run.

You're right, campers always loose, except in the 3 maps I mentioned. Like i said it's a terrible rookie mistake to support campers the way marics and ruskprick do in those 3 maps. Normally you just go somewhere else. Campers can only camp people who come to them. Like in the test lab single player maps on vanialla. NEVER use the tele's because they are always camped. Those campers always loose.

The problem is that not only are these camper supporting areas, they have direct line of sight to ALL of the power weapons. It's not only an issue with item placement, but a terribly planned out level. I'm great at uncamping campers, but when some bone head mapper supports them like that, the level is unplayable.

[[BTF]Jehar]

I have to defend maric as a mapper - I consider him to be one of the best ffa talents q2 has. Simple as that. In regards to Rooftop Serenade, yeah, the map is unbalanced. It was made that way. Why? Because it was made with player counts of 4-10, not 1v1s. I've played mangy alone on that map before, and yeah, the SMART thing is to control (not camp) the mh\ra\rl. That whole top area is pretty fucking overpowered, but that's okay. It adds tension to the map - you have something really worth fighting over.

Other maps have more balanced gameplay. Some don't. It's all good in my mind, as they create different priority sets.

In regards to camping per se - I have to agree with Element. If a camper is giving you trouble, approach him differently. He can only prey on repeated behaviour. If you switch it up on him, chances are he won't know what's coming. Sure, it's not sportsmanlike to camp, but a superior player should be able to demonstrate that q2 is not easily broken by a couple idiots.

[peewee_RotA]

a superior player should be able to demonstrate that q2 is not easily broken by a couple idiots.

Once again I'm talking about mutant and vanilla servers. The whole "You're not competitive enough" argument is a little off when we're talking about FFA servers.

[jägermonsta]

Once again I'm talking about mutant and vanilla servers. The whole "You're not competitive enough" argument is a little off when we're talking about FFA servers.

How is it off? FFA is still competitive. If it wasn't you wouldn't be here whining.

Map control is part of the game. Basically it separates noobs from decent players... whether it's tdm or ffa map control is key to winning.

Learn to control the maps yourself and perhaps you will change your opinion/quit whining when you lose.

[Whirlingdervish]

I agree with some of jager's points.


Even in FFA style games like those that are played on Mutant and Vanilla, there is an element of item controlling and area controlling that will undoubtedly seperate the 2-3 top end players from the rest of the masses.

here's a generalization of the usual point spread on these FFA servers:

one or two people are fighting over who gets the fraglimit (or highest score/fph ) each time
3-5 people are about 10 frags behind the leaders
the rest of the players have scores ranging between 10-0 when the fraglimit/timelimit hits.


the reason for this is almost entirely skill, but the spread being nearly the same every time is also due to item control.
here's why I think this happens on most maps in FFA:

* how many players can conceivably pick up the red armor (or other high end powerup) when there are two skilled players timing it for the duration of the map?

probably only 2.


* how much ammo is there on any given map at any time?

enough for the top two players to stay nice and armed and a bit for the mid-range players to have about 1-2 weps with a reasonable amount of rounds to work with. the newbs get blasters and the SGs that are close to spanwpoints before they get rocked by the better equipped players who are running by.

* how easy is it to line up and watch/spam one of the 3 most powerful weapons that are always in the same spot (due to the weaponstay dm flag) while people scamper by to grab them?

very easy.


of any of these, spamming the powerful weapons is the closest thing to camping, but even then, it's just what you do when you see an enemy. If they run toward the RL, you shoot a rocket at it so they get splattered. I do the same thing when I see people scampering off towards a nice set of armor too.. It's basicly just leading and predicting.

it's only camping if you hide in a corner with 2-3 sides blocked by walls, so you can rail down a hallway or down onto people below without fear of being flanked or having someone run up behind you and spank you.

And seriously, if camping wasn't a legitimate technique, there wouldn't be a sniper class in almost every ww2 FPS game, and there wouldn't be so many scoped rifles in CS, and the railgun in q2 would only be useful to the handful of players that can actually hit shit with it while running full speed and dodging.


in conclusion, I find whining about campers to be slightly worse sportsmanship than actually camping.
at least camping can serve as a viable strategy. whining will never get you a kill.

[ReCycled]

Camping is an old subject that's been debated here many times. An experienced player will have no problem with it. He can choose to ignore the area or go in and destroy the camper thru superior technique. If a camper actually wins a game then they are probably a very good shot as well, so its not just the position advantage. I camp occasionally just for the fun of it. Its more like a mini-game within the game. You don't care about winning - just controlling that spot. Some examples are:

The cave on City1
The submersable bridge on Bunk1
The Rocket Launcher pool area on Cool1
The top section above the RL pool on Train
The hand grenade top area on Mine4
and a few others...