rl, times, and shortcuts

[console]

Hi,

I received this complaint on IRC... but as usual (I hate this aspect of IRC) the person didn't stay online long enough for me to respond.

[07:28] <Saix> can you please do yourself a favor and remove rl's admin
[07:29] <Saix> he is forcing votes to his favor, changing maps after hes timed them so no one can beat him, and adding blocks to block shortcuts even though the person in first place used the shortcut
[07:29] <Saix> which makes it difficult if not impossible to beat the first place time
[07:31] <Saix> shortcuts are a part of jump mod, creating harder jumps to get the edge over other players, blocks should only be used to assist in IMPOSSIBLE jumps (not hard ones that noobs cant do) and maybe used to recover from falls
[07:31] <Saix> hes is ruining the server, and most importantly the mod
[07:32] <Saix> i know several players that refuse to play on that server, including myself, because of his actions
[07:35] <Saix> there are maps that actually have textures saying not to add blocks to the map because it ruins the difficulty

Now, we've had arguments about the pros and cons of blocking shortcuts on here before.

However; if rl is doing the part above about forcing votes in his favor, and blocking shortcuts only after he has used the shortcut to time the map, it would be preferable if these allegations could be backed up with evidence.  Obviously if rl is REALLY doing that, then it would be admin abuse.  But rl's admin has already been removed once based on false allegations.  I'm not inclined to repeat that mistake.

As far as blocking shortcuts... To me it all depends on how cheesy the shortcut is. What percentage of the map does it skip?  How long is the map otherwise?  Are a lot of potentially fun parts of the map just being skipped so that no-one cares about playing the whole map because of the shortcut?

An example of the kind of shortcut I think should NOT be blocked would be on a small map like ajm.bsp.  It's a small one-room map anyway... and the shortcut to finish the map quickly is actually rather challenging.  I think it's a nice balance.

But we've seen other shortcuts (can't think of the map names) where some relatively easy jump or "false wall" enables entire rooms of a map to be cut off, with some relatively easy maneuvre, once you know the shortcut exists.  Shortcuts like that seem lame to me, and I have no problem with them being blocked.

Comments?


Regards,

[haunted]

Yeah, if what saix is saying is 100% accurate rl is in the wrong. I just wish someone would list the maps in question so it could be addressed. I've been jumping w/ him since 5 years ago and he's not the typical whining type. Next time I see saix I will find out more about it.

[rl]

Whats the problem again? I block shortcuts, is that wrong? wtf ppl. 1st - I ask ppl should i block smth or leave it . 2nd I have never block the shortcut after I used it, please...and what about saix...yee after he get 1st place he wont vote for more time but when I get 1st and wont vote for more time he start to whine...nice! I block sc only when I know this sc is blocked on other servers. But if saix is pro and he want to easy finish map in 5 sec with some gay sc rather then do it in harder way in 50 sec so its his problem. It's always nice to criticize somebody...

[haunted]

It's much better to keep your cool and be calm when you're accused rl. Notice that it still remains as something 'we need to figure out.'

[Saix]

i don't want to get in a big argument, so i'm going to post my opinions and do what you will with them.

here's a demo of ashtonsjumps3, in one of the lava rooms. this is a very large map with several rooms and its fairly difficult. the demo shows the normal route, then the shortcut (theres another shortcut from the double jump to the ramp in the middle before the glass but i didn't show it). it doesn't make the room any easier or harder, just faster, which gives you the edge over your opponents and last time i checked thats what this mod was about. on this map there are several small shortcuts like this, if you wanted to make the map unnecessarily long, why not block them all? leave the map how it was created to keep players inspired to find new and faster shortcuts, its a part of the mod that makes it so fun to play.

now a few comments on rl's post:

Whats the problem again? I block shortcuts, is that wrong? wtf ppl.

i told you how this can be wrong in my comments above, and i do realize map ruining shortcuts exist, but this is not one of them. its not hard to tell the difference and i would assume an admin of a jump server would be able to.

1st - I ask ppl should i block smth or leave it .

when you blocked this shortcut, you didn't ask anyone

and what about saix...yee after he get 1st place he wont vote for more time but when I get 1st and wont vote for more time he start to whine...nice!

its true sometimes i don't vote extra time after i've got first place, but i also don't VOTE TO CHANGE THE MAP. and you're one to talk about crying after not adding time.

I block sc only when I know this sc is blocked on other servers.

i played this on a different server, and guess what...it wasn't blocked. (ergo gibbus jump server iirc, the only empty one i could find)

But if saix is pro and he want to easy finish map in 5 sec with some gay sc rather then do it in harder way in 50 sec so its his problem.

the average time for this map is about 200 seconds,  this shortcut takes 3-4 seconds, the normal route takes 8-10... that means this shortcut cuts off a total of 5-6 seconds. if 50 second map is completed it in 5 by using a shortcut, that would be regarded as a map ruining shortcut which as you just proved, you cant tell the difference.

edit: one last thing, i unfortunately didn't condump any of this but he has been forcing votes that otherwise wouldn't have passed. im letting you know this so you can watch for it in the future. also to clarify one thing, i didn't say he added blocks after using the shortcut, but other players that have previously timed the map. if you block a shortcut after someone used it and timed the map using it, you're giving everyone else a disadvantage.

[Whirlingdervish]

you might want to attach that map so people can view the demo...

[Saix]

you might want to attach that map so people can view the demo...

done

hi@pinged. j0.saix 4 lief

[console]

here's a demo of ashtonsjumps3, in one of the lava rooms. this is a very large map with several rooms and its fairly difficult. the demo shows the normal route, then the shortcut (theres another shortcut from the double jump to the ramp in the middle before the glass but i didn't show it). it doesn't make the room any easier or harder, just faster, which gives you the edge over your opponents and last time i checked thats what this mod was about. on this map there are several small shortcuts like this, if you wanted to make the map unnecessarily long, why not block them all? leave the map how it was created to keep players inspired to find new and faster shortcuts, its a part of the mod that makes it so fun to play.
...
the average time for this map is about 200 seconds,  this shortcut takes 3-4 seconds, the normal route takes 8-10... that means this shortcut cuts off a total of 5-6 seconds.

Thanks for the info.  This is precisely the kind of shortcut I would agree should NOT be blocked, for the reasons you stated.

edit: one last thing, i unfortunately didn't condump any of this but he has been forcing votes that otherwise wouldn't have passed. im letting you know this so you can watch for it in the future.

Here's a log of all forced votes on the server in the last 2 calendar months.  NOTE, it's important consider that any number of these forced votes MAY have been done with the approval of the rest of the players on the server.  In such cases, where everyone is in agreement, I have no problem with the forced vote.  I don't have time to do the research to look at the circumstances surrounding each of these.  But here's the raw data:

jump-070401.log:[2007-04-12 13:15] Vote passed, merc forced the vote. Adding 5 minutes.
jump-070401.log:[2007-04-14 14:28] Vote passed, rl forced the vote. Adding 5 minutes.
jump-070401.log:[2007-04-15 08:16] Vote passed, rl forced the vote. Adding 5 minutes.
jump-070401.log:[2007-04-16 09:00] Vote passed, rl forced the vote. Level changing to hellfire_18.
jump-070401.log:[2007-04-16 23:20] Vote passed, merc forced the vote. Adding 5 minutes.
jump-070401.log:[2007-04-17 16:22] Vote passed, rl forced the vote. Level changing to spjump13.
jump-070401.log:[2007-04-17 21:46] Vote passed, merc forced the vote. Adding 5 minutes.
jump-070401.log:[2007-04-18 15:15] Vote passed, rl forced the vote. Adding 5 minutes.
jump-070401.log:[2007-04-18 17:39] Vote passed, rl forced the vote. Adding 3 minutes.
jump-070401.log:[2007-04-19 01:08] Vote passed, merc forced the vote. Level changing to sspeedmap1.
jump-070401.log:[2007-04-19 10:14] Vote passed, merc forced the vote. Adding 4 minutes.
jump-070401.log:[2007-04-19 21:30] Vote passed, merc forced the vote. Level changing to monsters.
jump-070401.log:[2007-04-19 21:35] Vote passed, merc forced the vote. Level changing to apocalypse.
jump-070401.log:[2007-04-21 19:54] Vote passed, merc forced the vote. Adding 2 minutes.
jump-070401.log:[2007-04-23 21:34] Vote passed, haunted forced the vote. Level changing to tjumps1.
jump-070401.log:[2007-04-23 22:09] Vote passed, merc forced the vote. Kicking Lohmatiy.
jump-070401.log:[2007-04-25 03:58] Vote passed, merc forced the vote. Level changing to ps3.
jump-070401.log:[2007-04-26 13:07] Vote passed, merc forced the vote. Adding 5 minutes.
jump-070501.log:[2007-05-02 05:39] Vote passed, rl forced the vote. Level changing to hellfire_36.
jump-070501.log:[2007-05-02 06:33] Vote passed, merc forced the vote. Level changing to atr_kjump8.
jump-070501.log:[2007-05-02 07:42] Vote passed, rl forced the vote. Adding 6 minutes.


Regards,

[Chopper]

Im not taking sides but i agree with rl. Saix is talking about 1 map.....The only time ive seen rl force a vote is if we've told him, Or ive been idle (in which he knows i would vote yes) He doesnt abuse admin and MOST if not everyone agree's with adding boxes to block sc's, Or some1 will ask in which rl will ask the rest.... He's good admin, And NO i dont know rl, As you can see he barely talks english.... Its just good to have some1 around as often as rl, To fix maps etc..... There was ALOT of broken maps before rl came along

[haunted]

j2.pinged hahaha...

That was funny, everyone that was in all owned 

I 100% agree w/ saix in regards to this map. However, I respect rl's opinion being that he is familiar w/ jumpmod and has always had skill. (when concerning sc's, it gets very opinionative) I wish more jumpers came to the site to make it more open to discussion and see what the majority thinks.

[rl]

So i force votes when ppl ask me to do it becouse they want more time or another map. WTF ! and saix is a whine becouse after i put a box on aj3 he just write 3 line in console and quit, he didnt noticed i removed that box but.... better whine then say what you want. Is that so hard? For saix  think it is. And btw if i block some sc im doing it no make a map more interesting. Maybe you should find in the logs how many times i ask ppl if they want more time or they want new map ha? And i also use dummyvote like "more time" and if this vote passed i add or fore vote for time. And about saix...only one thing, if you compare tasty server to gibbus, where since....mmm... 2004 theres no admin and nobody add even 1 box there and theres still old vers. of jumpmod so I wont even say anything...Geez people i have never get so much trouble with every server like i have here, 1st somebody fake my words in condump then somebody whine about 1 added box witch actually was removed after 10 sec but he can know about it becouse he already leave the server...

[Chopper]

I totally agree with rl..... Saix is 1 of the best jumpers we've ever had in jumpmod time. But he doesnt talk, Ive asked saix to add time  (vote yes) for a map that hadnt been completed, And he did go on to whine at me coz i wanted to complete a 20/30 second map.... Not having a go saix, or trying to make you look bad. I admit i dont like the 0 - 10 sec maps but they are there to be played, Ive made 1 map in my time and it will be the only 1, There was a sc on it by accident, And i wanted it to be blocked or the map deleted....People are putting alot of effort in to make these maps and would probably want the whole map to be played, whever its 1 room or 6, I know i would..... Again rl is good admin, Just jump away and if you have any probz, Like console says condump (Just dont fake it like armour  ) 

[haunted]

RL, perhaps you misunderstood me... I said that I agreed with saix but the matter is very opinionative; it could be right in one's eyes yet wrong in another's. This is not considered admin abuse, just a debate being that tastyspleen has no official stand regarding block placement when it is vague to whether they are necessary or not.

[rl]

rl !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! not RL

[Lohmatiy]

First of all, never seen rl changing a map after he has timed it, but noticed, that Saix doesn't vote for time after completing a map. rl's a very good admin, he adds blocks only when it's really necessary. You only have to explain, when the blocks aren't in place, and he would remove them, as it was at ashtonsjumps3. Maybe you can see it in the logs. Here, Saix's an awesome jumper, but he's a whiner right now Sry, Saix.

[offtopic] Can I please get more logs on that 'jump-070401.log:[2007-04-23 22:09] Vote passed, merc forced the vote. Kicking Lohmatiy.'? Seems to be, that some person, probably mesnik, used my nick to abuse jumpers, as merc told. Can't remember any "kick Lohmatiy", when I was playing. [/offtopic]