The great timer debate

[[BTF]EyEsTrAiN]

In my wanderings on different forums, I found this debate about timers:

http://www.r1ch.net/forum/index.php?topic=489.0

So I wondered what the people around here think of the whole timer debate. Personally I don't think they should be used at all, but unless there would be a way to stop them entirely, it gets a little sticky. It would present an advantage in say a 1vs1 against someone who didn't have them, and it eliminates the skill of using your brain to actually time things. Out of curiousity, does anyone know of any other FPS games that use timers, I don't play many others and wanted to know. I think the timing of items and such should be entirely the player actively using his skills to time when the items come back. Afterall, if you can start off in control of a map, you can figure out the timing for the items because you gobbled them up in the first place. I could be off my rocker by thinking a game as old as q2 needs built in timers because people still play it that hardcore. I can understand why evilpope put them in the client, but I would have tried to find someway of stopping them all together. Perhaps I am a dreamer. 

[ĄƦçɧąɳɠҾԼ]

I think it's cheating, I don't and will not use them.

As far as other games, I've seen people on other forums talk about using them in various games, such as Halo.

[[BTF]Gator]

Well, i dont consider them cheats.  i dont really care if my opponent is using them or not.  i have a good idea of when the spawn just be "feeling".  i have used q2a with the timers, and they basically just confused me anyways.  They bother me on the screen too.  But that is just me.


As with any form of "cheat", if you dont like who you are playing with, or how they are playing, you can simply leave.  It is the only choice you have any control over.  i dont come unglued if i think someone is not legit.  i just try to work harder.  Or if it is too frustrating, just leave.  That easy for me.

[Laurelin]

I don't think it's cheating. I think it's cheap.

But I consider many things cheap in q2 (bfg - quad etc..).

My views are pretty simple about this.

It's impossible to stop it - so up to you. I don't mind playing people using BFG or Quad even though I will never use these items. Its pretty much the same thing regarding the timers.

If i'd take things more seriously - id prolly use them.

[daelmun]

Good topic!

First off, to make it simple every item in quake2 has respawn times, which means the time it takes from the item is picked up untill the item reappears. The basic respawn times are:

armor - 20 seconds
weapon - 30 seconds
quad - 60 seconds
invu - 300 seconds (5 min)
megahealth - 20 seconds after the last person who picks it up gets 100 health or lower

Timers are tools that help you to keep track of the time from you pick up the items till it respawns. Most common is the wav-timer. It is a .wav file that last as long as the respawn time of the item you want to pick up. It usually counts down using a voice saying "20 - 10 - 5 - 4 - 3 - 2 - 1" or just beeping. In order to use a wav timer, you need to place the .wav file in the baseq2/sounds folder, and "bind key play timer.wav". When you pick up the item, just press the key at the same time and you will now have an easy job timing the item. Recently with q2advance there is the addition of on screen timers, that are triggered automatically. Meaning each time you pick up an armor a clock will appear on your screen counting down the seconds till it spawns. The automated timers in q2a only triggers when picking up armor, quad, invu, adrenaline and ammopak, so it doesn't time megahealth or weapons.

Think timers first were introduced to the European quake2 scene really early on, and over here they have been used almost since the early days in teamplay mods. Even was a client that had automated timers way back (xania). However automated timers are now looked on as a cheat over there, while manual (wav-timers) are allowed. Not sure how the scene in NA was standing when it comes to the use of timers. But lately timers are really common in teamgames.

As for teamgames, the main use of timers are to keep track of the quad on quad maps. And at times keep track of important weapons/armors. It does help quite a bit, but it never makes or breaks a good team. If noone on your team can time the quad down to the second without the use of timers, then the team has bigger problems than just timers. So think noone really mind timers all that much in teamgames, it's a tool used to keep focus more on the game than the actual item timing. Makes the game more organized and less random, I guess.

However, when it comes to 1v1 it can be really different. Some maps have a few key items that completely controls the map, and on these maps someone using a timer gets a significant advantage over anyone not using it. The down to the second accurate timing of several items at the time just can't be done as easily in the head. So even against an experienced player you could actually control the map just by completely control the itemspawns. It's very noticable on maps with red armor, such as dm7, ztn2, ztn3, ptrip and fury. On all these maps the use of timers makes it a lot easier to control the items, locking down the map. You may have a good feeling for the spawntimes, but you can't outfeel a clock ticking down. You may not notice that when being outskilled by an opponent, but when playing a more equally skilled opponent it becomes very visible at times, and it will make a otherwise close game a really loopsided one. And where you in teams players are given positions and usually focus on only one or max two items at the time, in duels you need to be more strategic in what items to control, and how to run your routes. Being able to keep your head focused on sounds, on attack/defense and thinking about your next move while timing the RA and RL requires a lot of skill. However if you don't need to even think about the timing aspect of the game, it really makes easier to play. Take under consideration that you can time several items at the time without much more effort, and you can get some weird gameplay. Keep in mind this is if one player use timers and the other does not. Which quite often is the case on NA servers these days, some players use them, while the majority doesn't use them (how many of you used timers in the tastyspleen tourney? Don't think there were too many). If both players are levelled with timers and have the same possibilities to time items, it's of course more fair and makes the game closer to what it should be. However is it really that fun when there is almost no room for human error in the timing of items? At times missing an item spawn can completely turn the game around. These things doesn't happen all too often when players use timers.

A look on timers in general: timers are not allowed in quakecon for the 1v1 tournies and I think that says what the intention of the game was. Timing items is a highly valued skill in 1v1, it has been so in every quake game from what I've read/watched, and is the same in competetive 1v1 games like painkiller and quake3. Using the onscreen clock to time is how it should be done. Not by using scripts or commands that never were intended for that use in the first place. Read how people reacted to the use of timers on various forums, and most people agreed that timing was as skill that was basic/universal. It should be possible to time items just as good in quake2 as in quake3. Keep in mind I'm mostly talking about the 1v1 aspect of timers. When it comes to teams I understand there are several ways of doing this in various games, so if others have info on that please bring it forth.

I personally use timers in teamgames, especially in 4v4, when playing experienced players who use them too. Playing FFA players in teams I just don't use them, it's just another advantage on top of every other advantage i got in teamgames already (teambinds and playing q2dm1 24/7). In duels I used to use them at times playing people using timers, but now I don't use them even then. I try to work on the timing aspect of the game, it's not easy for me. I often go by the feel, sometimes it works, other times it just doesn't. But that's a part of the game I need to improve on, and as I see improving as the most fun part of quake2 it just makes me even more motivated to play this game

Hope I made some sense, and I agree with Laurelin, I don't see it as a cheat but it's cheap. I wont ban or refuse playing anyone using timers, but I wont give them much credit for their timing skills. That's for sure

[daelmun]

Ah, and even though I write huge posts doesn't mean I'm right. Just lately been talking this over with various people. Generally people don't mind them in teams but frown at them and would rather see them gone in 1v1's. I tend to agree on that

[banes]

great post as usual daelmun

i dont see why there is a difference between team and 1v1 games however, since you can essentially time the same items, not jut the quad, is it so that your team mate is aware at the same time that you just grabbed on an item so he can catch the next spawn?

[seanikai]

i dont see why there is a difference between team and 1v1 games

it's all about the balance of things, for instance in 4v4 timing the quad merely will allow your team to hold control or make a nice comeback against a very good team, while in 1v1 item timing, especially on certain maps, can let a mediocre player win against someone better skill wise simply because you can out health or armor the player because he doesn't have the same advantage you do with knowing the exact second the item spawns. However, the amount of maps on which this kind of thing happens on is few and far between, and it's not like people really stop playing the edge long enough to even worry about something like that, so really the damage incurred from using timers in a duel is very minimal, and since every league now uses q2a 1.0 it really shouldn't make any difference at all. If you still don't get what I'm saying I can show you a demo of what I'm talking about.

I use audio timers, originally it began last fall when I played for several teams and ran the quad for all of them in 4v4 games, then after seeing some demos of better players on non-edge maps using timers in 1v1 I think I kinda got hooked on it. As for them being cheats, that's funny to me, the people that say timers are cheats are usually the same people crying about people using pak textures, bright skins, and custom sounds as cheating too, I was clanned with a guy that was my friend in real life (Manson[DFX]) and he drove me nuts with all the borderline cheating finger pointing, so I pretty much just say blow me when someone tries to give me a hard time about it. Most of the people I play against use them vs me and it doesn't bother me one bit, in fact playing timer vs timer with daelmun or naymlis really gives me a thrill sometimes, because it really brings an extra edge to the gameplay, although I'm sure dael and most of the others would disagree with that, but hey, we're all different.

[daelmun]

As for wav timers, the guy picking up quad will have bind like this:

say_team "[QUAD +60];play quad.wav"

Which will tell the others on that the quad spawns in 60, and they will hit their own bind (if they have the job to time quad, some chose that everyone on the team times quad while others only have maybe 2 guys timing quad). And when the quad spawn is near [QUAD IN 10] messages will be spammed, and just as quad spawns [TAKE QUAD NOW!] will be spammed. That way the whole team will know when it spawns even though maybe only one or two actually times it.

In q2advance in order to get the automated timers starting you actually need to hear the pickupsound.


Anyway, from what I've heard in q3 there is a 5th "player" a choach with all 4 povs on his screen actually timing the vital items (quad/and whatever other weird items q3 has). Not sure though. But think the main reason people dislike timers the most in duels is that #1 it's so obvious to see at times and #2 it gives an even bigger advantage.

[daelmun]

Oh, and as sean said there are maps where timers makes bigger impact on the outcome than on others. For instance on q2dm1 the only item you need to pick up at spawn is the megahealth. Chain/rail is fairly easy to defend, and hard for opponent to take away from you if youre in control. As there are 2 rl's it's no way you can control both while keeping mega secure. And the armor spawns as it likes

Generally maps with RA will favour a player using timers, or a map with a very dominant weapon. For instance ptrip (powertrip) happens to be both, it has RA and a weapon that is really strong on that map (RL). So anyone digging that map is sure to be timer freaks Muahaha, evil laughter.

And again, I play people regardless. And I'm sure if I asked they wouldn't use timers, but then again it sharpens your own timing skills so when facing another player not using timers you may have the upper hand again. Just focus on your own play, before starting to tear apart your opponent.

[[BTF]Defiant!]

Some believe in doing anything they can get away with to win.  Like camping the rail on q2dm1 in FFA.  It is part of the game and other people do it, so why not?  Well I don't.

I would prefer timers not be supported.  But, pushbutton timers are pretty well accepted, so no big deal.  It is a minor exploit, because timing the spawns in your head isn't a hard skill.  Ever wakeup seconds before your alarm goes off?

To me, using a pushbutton timer feels like building a handicap.  Almost like it is taking part of the victory away from me.  I think it is pretty cool to rush in and take the 100h at the second of spawn.  Less impressive if using a timer.

"What counts in sports is not the victory, but the magnificence of the struggle."

In other words, all the more glory to beat someone who is leveraged to the hilt with exploits. 

Def

[Bleach]

I dont think they are cheats, but i wouldnt use em... i tried them, couldnt stand them, wont use em...

I wouldnt much notice some one using them against me though, i'd just think they were timing in their head just like i am.

[Slikkster]

It's just another example of the varying degrees of importance people place on playing the game.  I couldn't be bothered by using a timer, and never knew they existed until a short time ago.  But, that naivete will certainly cost me (or at least could potentially) against someone who does. 

I'm basically point and shoot, which certainly has it's competitive drawbacks.  I'm sure there are many other long-time players who also don't get into the game at such a strategic and/or tactical level.  It's not a right or wrong issue for me.  It's just one of those "I really don't care about that level of nuance" deals. 

About the only timer that would be worthwhile for me is one that tells me "You've been playing that game for too long today!", lol. 

[X'tyfe]

its a cheat imo, same with glowing skins too things like quad/bfg/invul are part of the game
there cheap, but i sill use them. you should get used to timing the items without timers. you will be a much better player
i dont have a problem with custom pak files and textures and stuff either
infact i just designed one for myself and im much better

if anyone knows any paks that have a good set of textures/env or weapon/ammo skins
let me know thats what im looking for next

[Laurelin]

"What counts in sports is not the victory, but the magnificence of the struggle."

May I know who you did quote?

Regards,
Laurelin