Demos - 3rd person or 1st?

[the Crazed]

Hmmm, which is better?  As a ref I've been recording players lately and most people seem to think first-person is better, but I disagree.

The drawbacks to third-person are not seeing precisely where a player is aiming and not being able to see everything he sees, like when the player is looking down at someone from a ledge.  Sometimes you miss some great frags that way.  It also might be more difficult to detect a hack. 

Why third-person then?  Movement.  As you all know, Quake 2 is a game of movement, which consists of walking, running, jumping, and juking.  You might be able to see some of that from the players POV, but it's nothing compared to actually watching from the outside.  You see so much more clearly how fast they're moving, how they're moving their "body", how they integrate their playing into the map, and even their "balance".  I think strategy is clearer also because you have a good idea of exactly where they are on the map.  In third-person you can see precisely where they are standing when they make that jump, or how close they are to the edge of a dropoff, and where they are positioned when they are attacking a certain area.  In first-person the fine details are lost.

It'd be nice to see the POV of someone like Michael Jordan or Barry Sanders, but you wouldn't be able to appreciate how they move their bodies or how they're generating mistakes in their opponents' reactions.  You might be able to interpret that they just made a head-fake but you couldn't see how it was done.  You couldn't show a race in first-person because you would just not get a sense of the speed the runners are moving unless they're staring down at the ground.  It might be interesting in a 40m dash, but what about 400m?  In many sports coaches will show you video of yourself to demonstrate how you're actually achieving your results (for example, a golf swing).  These are far more educational than had they stuck electrodes to your head and analyzed what you were seeing at the time.  It's more objective.  Seeing the body in Q2 is having a lot more insight into how skilled a player really is.  You really see how they use the space around them.  And just like sports it's very educational to see your "self" in Q2 from a third-person perspective. 

I used a friend's computer to spectate and record myself playing ffa at Mage Warehouse.  It tripped me out!  I thought it was really cool to see how I moved and how I tried to trick people and what exactly I did wrong in the little battles I'd get into.  It helped me analyze my gameplay and also helped me appreciate how much I'd improved.  I have always spectated good players and seen how effortlessly they built up speed (as well as seeing it in-game) and I really felt like I was starting to get up to that level.  Before that it was an educated guess based on scores and which jumps I could do.

I can understand that some people might enjoy the first-person perspective more, but if they state unequivocally that first-person is BETTER, I have to totally disagree. 

Ummm, that being said... can someone go into detail about why they think first-person is better?  Maybe there's something I'm overlooking that you get from first but can't get from third.

Anyways, cast your vote!

[the Crazed]

hmmm... right now third-person has the lead 100%!!!!

[naymlis]

your post convinced me to vote either one instead of first-person 

ill let daelmun answer the pros of first-person pov though, I'm too high to think

[Dr_Cornholio]

Hmmm... Well, if this were Quake III (ya know, the game every1 says they hate, besides me), the demos would be able to be viewed in first or third person view, depending on what the viewer chooses. 

[seanikai]

yeah the way q3 demos are done is badass, I wish it was like that in q2

[Dr_Cornholio]

Yeah but Q3 demos still suck (not as much as Q2 demos though).
I'm not too sure bout Doom 3 demos yet but I think demo technology must reach the stage where you can watch demos with full spectator control (minus chatting etc. obviously) but you're able to move around, view the scoreboard when you want etc.. 

[Slikkster]

Questions about demos:

[daelmun]

I prefer 1st person over 3rd person any day. Guess it's just the way I'm used to watching demos, but since day #1 I couldn't really enjoy 3rd person demos as good. But of course 3rd person demos are ok at times, but I prefer a good recam in those stituations, 3rd person chasecams are the poor mans solution then.

As you mentioned you don't see the aim, you can't see how he lines up his shots, where he place his crosshair for predictionshots or the finer aim when it comes to different weapons, the amount of lead with each weapon or the flick shots or just blind shots. I find it more pleasant and usefull to the see the person in eyes, the postitioning of the crosshair is so vital and people aim quite different at times. You also notice if the player is stressed or nervous easily. And certainly if you're looking for cheats it is easier to spot it with 1st person demos, which is important in tourneys.

Movement, I don't really agree that much on that part. Maybe to the untrained eye it appears to be easier to see movement. Bt to me the movement is apparant in the mousemovement, the flicking of the mouse to perform circlestrafe jumps, or the circlejumps of the oldschool players. Just watch how players perfrom the jump from backpack to yellow armor on q2dm1, people do it quite different. It's all so nice to see in first person, as you can see perfectly well how the mouse is used in the jump. The players speed through a map is to me more influenced by the fov than whether it is 3rd or 1st person view to me at least, I wont say you're wrong as I guess the model visible gives you one more reference point on the speed of the player. But again, people with good knowledge about movement can pretty easily tell if a player is fast or slow. Anyway, I personally think the first person view gives you a finer look into the details of the jumping technique, on how the jumps are done and how good the player is at moving in general.

As for finer details in the positioning, I don't really agree all that much on that either. A first person demo shows it just as good (how often do you accidentally fall off a ledge cause you didn't know where you stood? not very often). Another point to that is that the beauty of q2 gets lost, the fact that if you can't see the enemy the enemy can't see you. At times there are situations where people duck or stay away from the edge just to avoid being seen, in 3rd person view it's hard to realize when either of the players are seen or when they are safe. I don't know, maybe it's not so vital, but it takes something away from the game in my eyes. Also when it comes to detecting cheating.

Don't know, but I personally think the way players think is clearer in 1st person view. Easy to see how players follow their opponents with sound and positioning the crosshair at the closest opening where he might appear. How he position the crosshair at entrances, people often place it a bit ahead so they take into account the ping and reaction time when doing the shot. Others line their crosshair exactly on the corner and do plain prediction shots, and rely heavier on pure mind game than actual reaction/aim/ping. Also think it is easier to read the players mind in combats, where he place rockets, how he traps the player.

And if you look at pov demos recorded by the player, you get to see even more. First of the obvious, the fov. The field of view. It's great to see how people use this, some use high fov to benefit from seeing more around them, while other stick with lower just to get better aim, some even change fov when they use different weapons, and you also get and exact view of what the player is seeing. It's nice to see, often it gives you a good indication of the player and his style. You can also see when they player use zoom if he use it. The sounds also are 100% correct, so you can easily hear what sounds the player is hearing and how he react to them. It also gives other nice ingame messages (out of weapons, out of ammo, you can see what weapons are bound to the same key etc), and when it comes to teamplay demos I prefer player recorded demos over chasecams any day to see the mm2 messages. But that's beside the point.

There are situations in the game when things are easier to see from outside the player. For instance some frags looks more spectacular when being seen on the outside, certainly some rocketfrags (especially close up airrockets or similar nade frags), but at times they also can make a good railshot just look like an everyday rail. Hard to judge from the 3rd person chasecam at times how nice a rail really was. But in the situations where frags becomes better with 3rd person chasecam, I really prefer a good recam instead. The 3rd person chasecam quite often is too close or at the wrong angle so you don't see it as good as you could. It's the poor man's recam.

And to me personally the player model is taking up too much space, and the camera doesn't always follow the player too well in hard to navigate areas and close up to walls. I think it is easier to recognize players from the 1st person demos, easier to see the personal styles like that. In 3rd person everyone looks more alike.

For learning to play I think 1st person demos are better to begin with, it gives you a very easy way to see how others are playing cause it looks just like on your screen when you play. But there can be situations where an outside view gives addititonal information, and the fact that the aim/mousemovement isn't that appearant makes you focus more on other parts of the game. I think one of the reasons you found it so usefull is the fact that you play in eyes all the time when playing q2, so seeing yourself from the outside now and then may reveal you the small details that you just are not aware of when seeing it from the eyes. But don't forget all the things you miss as well. I certainly agree it can be fun seeing yourself in chasecam whether it is 1st person or 3rd person. You can easily record a pov demo yourself, but not often you see yourself in other players view. Whether that makes the demo better or not is another thing And comparing 1st person view or 3rd person view to golf or running is far fetched. Where the player look in golf or running is not really that important, but in fps gaming it is everything.


Anyway, most of the arguments are purely subjective, but I would think tourney demos should be recorded 1st person in order to spot cheating easier and to please the general demo watching population

[Dr_Cornholio]

WWHHHHHOOOOOOOAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA!!!!!
Man, expect a detailed post from daelmun! Wow!
You must like typing! 

[daelmun]

Thought everyone knew that by now... 

[Dr_Cornholio]

Haha! Yeah, just emphasising it now! 

[the Crazed]

Hey Dael,

Thanks for writing such a detailed response!  I think we'll just have to agree to disagree, but I appreciate the thoughtfulness    Also learned a few things too... 

[banes]

anytime dael writes another article, i always learn something new, he is the buddha of quake

[daelmun]

Yeah, it's all personal preference, can't say this or that is wrong and this and that is right. I could call you a newb and laughed at you, but a lot more fun typing out ridiculously long replys to annoy people who really don't care. That way the ones actually reading it are actually intersted in the topic and not the flame wars that discussions on forums result in

[banes]

lol good point, but sometimes my long posts have diffused situations, but other times it doesnt matter cause the flames are so high