Map Shortcuts: TO BLOCK, OR NOT TO BLOCK?

[console]

Greetings and Salutations,

I'd like to get some feedback on the issue of blocking map shortcuts, so we can arrive at a consistent policy in this regard.

Anyways, he has definitely put forth an awesome effort in trying to fix maps since he has been admin. However, many maps were NOT meant to be fixed at all by the actual map makers. (Shortcuts that were made purposely by map makers) Tefh sort of self-proclaimed himself as someone who has the authority to remove parts of maps that were placed their by the map makers. I addressed him over this matter and told him that changing a map (removing a shortcut in this case) is not soley his decision. He responded that 'he is the authority' and asked me 'What are you gonna do about it?'

The jist of the discussion involved him explaining that he knows more about the Jumpmod community standards so, among other things, he decides how much a shortcut should be allowed cut off before he erases scores and blocks it - all while saying my opinion means squat seeing as I've never run a server before (I was unaware of that before he told me). 

Certainly the hubris displayed by tefh isn't really helping things here.  But aside from that, I'm interested on what kind of consensus--if any--can be reached on this issue.

I think it's clear we need to arrive at some sort of consistent policy, otherwise admins will be counteracting each other's efforts by blocking and unblocking the same shortcuts.

PERSONALLY, I'm not 100% against shortcuts.  But I do think it's possible for a map-maker to make a mistake.  An example of a shortcut I think is cool is (for instance) ajm.bsp.  How you can jump off the stairs near the beginning and get to the top of the column and finish the map in a few seconds... But ajm is a pretty short map, anyway.  If ajm were a 1000 second map with all sorts of cool rooms and jumps, and you could shortcut the whole map... I would start to wonder if the shortcut was appropriate.

Thoughts and discussion welcome.  HOW do we determine whether a shortcut is a candidate for being blocked?


Regards,



---

REPORTED MAPS TO FIX:

jojump6 - attempted, map is not on server.

[[BTF] Reflex]

hmmm..  theres one.  I saw what looked like a good shortcut,  but trying it brought up
a center screen mssg about how the shortcut wasnt there today or something like that.

only way I can decribe it is it has a big sign at some point that says wrong way


I think it had to have been put there by an admin...  seeing as haunted did the map in 15 seconds,
and that was the only way I could see it being done,  which is now cutt off.....   

[Whirlingdervish]

that sounds pretty cheesy. what map is that flex?


I happen to make maps, and I would tend to lean towards letting
the maps stay the way they were designed by the mapper.

Having some hack come through in a minute and change the flow of the map seems really
disturbing, considering how much time it takes to make a good map in the first place.

Mappers are a crafty bunch, and there is usually a good chance that in the weeks
of building that the mapper did, they probably tested the map extensively.
Maps designed for a specific mod are usually tested even more to make sure that they
work perfectly with the mod in question.
Finally, if you made a map that was designed for jumping only, wouldn't it be fairly possible
that you yourself are capable of making those jumps and testing the map all the way through?

It seems logical that most

[ToxicMonkey^MZC]

Most of the most effective shortcuts require a large degree of skill to achieve and should obviously be left in as a reward for the dedicated jumper who takes the time to master the technique.

Some shortcuts are basically stupid and obviously so.  Things like where a gun has been placed where it shouldn't be (we all know the maps) should obviously be blocked.

I think it's 99% common sense as to whether a shortcut should be blocked or not.  Ask yourself: "Does this shortcut make the map less or more fun?" and that's the answer.

[{TNP}Dukie]

I don't jump.  Jumpin' is for pussies.   

Still, it seems like if there are shortcuts on the maps to be exploited then closing them off is only a matter of perspective or judgement on the closer.

Not for him to decide the fate or originality of the jumper or be an opportunity for the Admin to play GOD

I say, Let'em crash!

[pantaloons]

I think it's 99% common sense as to whether a shortcut should be blocked or not.

[[BTF] Reflex]

I remembers the name!!!!!

[Hannibal_]

hmmm.. theres one. I saw what looked like a good shortcut, but trying it brought up
a center screen mssg about how the shortcut wasnt there today or something like that.

only way I can decribe it is it has a big sign at some point that says wrong way


I think it had to have been put there by an admin... seeing as haunted did the map in 15 seconds,
and that was the only way I could see it being done, which is now cutt off.....

Yes the map is jojump6 and the blocking of the shortcut and the message is part of the original map. An Admin cannot add a centre print message.
To see how haunted did the map without the shortcut, type 'replay' in the console.

Mappers are a crafty bunch, and there is usually a good chance that in the weeks
of building that the mapper did, they probably tested the map extensively.
Maps designed for a specific mod are usually tested even more to make sure that they
work perfectly with the mod in question.
Finally, if you made a map that was designed for jumping only, wouldn't it be fairly possible
that you yourself are capable of making those jumps and testing the map all the way through?

It seems logical that most mappers would be able to spot shortcuts in their own handiwork.
It takes thousands of brushes to make a medium-sized map, and for the most part,
every single side and/or vertex of that brush was put where it is intentionally
by the mapper.

Whirlingdervish, I am sure that you are a dedicated mapper and you do test things properly, but you may be surprised how many people jump into editors and make jump maps and don't see the shortcuts or make utterly gay things like fake walls with a tele behind it that skips 90% of the map.
I've been adminning the Crikey jump server for about 3 years and I know all the mappers who make the best jump maps and they do intentionally make shortcuts sometimes, but there are always maps where they dont see a huge shortcut somewhere. In these cases they either release a new version with it blocked or they want it blocked on the servers. After all, if it's a huge easy shotcut, that means that the poor mapper spent a lot of effort making parts of the map that will never get used....
Intentional shortcuts are normally designed to cut off a SMALL amount of time and be HARD to do. In my opinion this is also what describes a 'good' shortcut.

Much of the time it is obvious whether a shortcut should be blocked (it's easy to do and cuts out too much of the map).
Other times it's not quite so obvious, and for these types I try to get the opinions of the regular jumpers on the server and either block or not block accordingly.

My personal opinion on ajm is that the shortcut should be blocked (as it is at Crikey), because it is too easy and cuts off 90% of the map.

Obviously what you need is admins that know what they are doing (which is different for jump than other mods) and are also trusted and respected by the majority of the regular jumping community.

I realise that it's much easier to say that than to actually achieve it, but I wish you luck in your endeavours to make it happen.


Cheers.
Hannibal

[console]

Hi Hannibal,

Thanks for your feedback.

After all, if it's a huge easy shotcut, that means that the poor mapper spent a lot of effort making parts of the map that will never get used....
Intentional shortcuts are normally designed to cut off a SMALL amount of time and be HARD to do. In my opinion this is also what describes a 'good' shortcut.

We're definitely on the same page, here.

My personal opinion on ajm is that the shortcut should be blocked (as it is at Crikey), because it is too easy and cuts off 90% of the map.

Interesting.  ajm was such a short map anyway I wouldn't have guessed people would mind that shortcut.  Apparently I would have bet wrong on that. 

Obviously what you need is admins that know what they are doing (which is different for jump than other mods) and are also trusted and respected by the majority of the regular jumping community.

I realise that it's much easier to say that than to actually achieve it, but I wish you luck in your endeavours to make it happen.

Thanks.  Indeed, it's been an interesting journey thus far.   

I'll admit if I had to choose between an admin who only semi-knew what he/she was doing, but who posessed an equanimous demeanor and interacted well with the players and asked for their feedback, vs. an admin who was a certified uber-supreme expert but who acted like a jerk, I'd definitely prefer the former.

Plus, as tefh astutely observed, we do strive for our servers here to be primarily user-run rather than admin-run, which I gather may not be all that common.  (And certainly has its trade-offs...)

Thanks again for your insights.

Regards,

quadz

[Hannibal_]

Hi quadz,
If theres anything I can help you with in jumpmod, let me know.
tefh knows my experience and knowlege of all things jumpmod 

Cheers.
Hannibal.

[[BTF] Reflex]

Shucks

[Whirlingdervish]

I have noticed a difference in the general level of quality between jump maps and
dm maps, that supports your point hannibal.
It seems that a decent number of them are really fun maps to play,
but could've been made by a determined 8 year old. The texturing and lighting quality
aren't always up to par, so I would assume that there wasn't a ton of time spent streamlining
the actual structures and paths, to remove all of the unintentional shortcuts.

Personally, I think putting "secrets"

[vafear]

I don't jump.  Jumpin' is for pussies.   

Still, it seems like if there are shortcuts on the maps to be exploited then closing them off is only a matter of perspective or judgement on the closer.

Not for him to decide the fate or originality of the jumper or be an opportunity for the Admin to play GOD

I say, Let'em crash!

you know id like to say something about your comment. I hear this shit alot about jumpmod is for pussys?!?! id really like to know what do you people mean by that?!?! jumpmod is a place for people to go and learn all diff kinds of jumps. either just to learn the jumps or to help with movement in tdm. which if i might add jumpmod works really good for movement in tdm. good movement comes with good aim. So for you coming off saying jumpmod is for pussys, I think your the pussy's and can't beat the maps or just to lame to try.     

[haunted]

Most of the most effective shortcuts require a large degree of skill to achieve and should obviously be left in as a reward for the dedicated jumper who takes the time to master the technique.

God damn I was high when I posted earlier.. I guess I just skimmed through toxic's post and thought I agreed with it(for those who saw it), lol. I do agree with the quote above. No shortcuts should be blocked that were put in by the map maker. Zero. That is how the map was made, and the times should be a test of how fast you can complete the map in it's entirety. An admin-made shortcut presents a different method of completing the map therefore providing jumpers who excel in one method more so than the other(a very hard shortcut that only upper tier players can complete with precision) an advantage. I mean why do good players even want admin-made shortcuts? To get a faster time with a harder challenge skill-wise I guess, but all that does is reduce the competition. Ofcourse not all shortcuts are like the one I described above though. I was just trying to get my point across with an example. About 5% of the maps in question of sc addition will have obvious mistakes in them that should be fixed though.

[haunted]

I remembers the name!!!!!   It was Bleh5?  I think.

Nope..  it was the map we playd right after,..  heh, 
I got the demo..  going to go look now

jojump6

hmm reflex, when was this? Lastnight before I went to bed I checked for it but the server only has jojump7-9.