Quake 2 Map question

[Flesh420]

Don't know if this is the proper place for this question, so if it needs moved sorry. 
But.... I was wondering if anyone can give me a concise and easy method on how to create smooth, round walls and smooth archways.  I'm working on a Quake 2 map, just learning but I've figured out almost everything besides that.  It seems like a clusterfuck of a hassle to make smooth walls and arches.  Any advice would be much much appreciated.  Thanks

[The Happy Friar]

The easiest way would be to make a multisided brush and GSC subtract it from where you want it.

[Whirlingdervish]

I would set the grid units in the editor to a multiple of 4, and starting with cube shaped brushes, adjust them into wedge shapes and build it by hand.

Brush subtraction works, but it can result in lots of additional triangles being handled during the vis calculations and in-game, and it can lead to strange texture fitting problems depending on the editor.

If you take the time and think of brushes like blocks of stone and yourself as a stone mason, you'll get it right with the least amount of hassle.

The more blocks, or smaller the grid units you choose, the more smooth your arch or curved wall.
In the quake 2 engine the best you can do is approximate a real curve with many small flat surfaces and then artfully texture it to give the impression of a curve. This can be done with varying degrees of success depending on how much time you spend at it, and which textures you apply to it (and how you apply them.. some editors allow for you to paint one brush based on the alignment of another. this works great to span a texture around a curve).
 

[Flesh420]

Ok guys.  Thanks allot for the help.

[Jay Dolan]

If you're not already familiar with the Quake2 Cafe, you should check it out!

http://leray.proboards.com/

[|iR|Focalor]

Does anybody still check and/or post on that forum regularly? Been delving into learning modeling a little bit lately and it would be nice to have any place I could ask a question or two when I need to a get a decent answer within a day or two. I've asked a few questions on the Quark boards lately, and I doubt I'll ever get an answer.

[The Happy Friar]

q2cafe seems to have some activity. 

[Jay Dolan]

Does anybody still check and/or post on that forum regularly? Been delving into learning modeling a little bit lately and it would be nice to have any place I could ask a question or two when I need to a get a decent answer within a day or two. I've asked a few questions on the Quark boards lately, and I doubt I'll ever get an answer.

The Q2 Cafe does still have activity, but it's almost entirely mapping-centric. For modeling, especially for Quake and Quake2, I would check out the Inside3d forums as well as #model_design on Freenode (this is the old Polycount community) as well as #terrafusion on QuakeNet (oldschool Quake mapping community, many of whom went pro and work in the industry).

Best of luck learning how to model! I was never able to pick it up.

[|iR|Focalor]

It's not too terribly difficult. I've never screwed with mapping at all, but I imagine that mapping is at least 10x more difficult than making models. I was completely utterly fucking lost at first, but it's been about a week at it and I'm starting to "kinda" get the hang of it. All I've done so far is a few pretty simple static models. I still have no clue how to draw vertices freehand and connect them properly with lines. If it weren't for the quick shape creator in Quark, I wouldn't be doing jack shit. But I don't think I wanna get into attempting to animate any Quake2 models.

Finally able to create some of the models I've been wanting for years. Guaranteed, there'll be rocket propelled dick and balls rocket projectiles in my next pak.

[The Happy Friar]

Learning how to use the program is the hardest thing to making models. The second hardest is getting your ideas in to a model. 

Same with a map, but maps have more variables: entities, size considerations, etc.  Models are pretty straightforward.

[Jay Dolan]

I started mapping with Qoole in 1999, and then learned QeRadiant in 2000. I guess, having learned it when I was still a teenager, I never appreciated how odd / unintuitive it is. I've never found the mechanics of mapping to be difficult (with the exception of bending pipes) -- just the creative part

[The Happy Friar]

I've never found the mechanics of mapping to be difficult (with the exception of bending pipes) -- just the creative part

Me too.  Frusterating.   

[|iR|Focalor]

Holy crap, man. I see now why Beanstorm (or whoever it was that was turning out player models at breakneck speeds) was always using MilkShape 3D instead of QuArK or anything else. I got curious and got me a copy of it. It's OODLES easier to use than QuArK. Modelling with QuArK is like shaving your balls with a butterknife.

[Jay Dolan]

Right on. I watched jitspoe (Paintball2 maintainer) crank out a rocket launcher in 10 minutes in MilkShape3D. I couldn't do it, but I was really impressed with how efficient he was with it.

[|iR|Focalor]

I ain't THAT fast, but I've only been using it a day or two. I'm already able to create models that are way more complex than what I could do with Quark. I've found that Quark has it's uses too though, so I won't be shitcanning it just yet. Manual click-n-drag scaling works a little different in Milkshape, but it's actually a little easier in Quark. So it looks like I'm gonna be using both progs to manipulate the models themselves. I'll be doing most or all of the actual model creating in Milkshape, and then scaling the whole thing down and positioning it so it'll show up in game correctly with Quark. I dunno, I've kinda got my own bass-ackwards way of doing it so far.

The plan, now that I've got Milkshape:

1. to build the model in Milkshape, export it to an MD2
2. then open it in Quark and make sure the texture reference directory path is correct as well as get some paper guides traced out from the screen for texture mapping size proportion purposes
3. then open the MD2 in NPherno's Skin Tool and map out the texture to a blank image however I want it mapped
4. then take a screenshot of the mapped out wireframe on the blank 2d image
5. then copy that to another image in Photoshop, delete the background so that all that's left is the wireframe
6. size that down to the exact dimensions of the texture and use the wireframe as a template for placing all the textures properly, turn off the wireframe channel, and save it as the skin image
7. then re-open the MD2 with the completed skin in Quark to scale and position the model properly

Like I said, it's probably not the "proper" way to do it, but its the way I've gotten used to now, so whatever.

But so far I've created only one unfinished model with Milkshape, a somewhat complex one, and I'm already having issues. I dunno what the fuck the problem is, but exporting it to MD2 from Milkshape is completely fucking up the model. It's moving around random vertices and misshaping the hell out of parts of it. Anyone know what the problem might be? I'll post some screenshots to show what's going on.

I'm making a Slayer pentagram logo for a quad damage model. The idea was to have the word "Slayer" reading forwards on both sides. So I created the Slayer logo, extruded it and didn't put a back face on it. Then I created a cylinder and was gonna put the circle and crossed swords on that. Then I created only one sword handle and left it floating at the top. The plan was to take that, texture map it, then afterwards use Quark to duplicate the sword handle 3 more times and place them around the edges of the circle lined up properly with the sword blades image inside the circle, then duplicate the Slayer logo, spin one to the other side and sink both of them into the cylinder. Doing this would prevent me from having to map out both Slayer logos and all 4 sword handles in NPherno's Skin Tool and would save some time and headache.

But...

(sized screenshots down to post, click for full size)

Here's what I made with Milkshape. This is the overall model:


And this is zoomed in on the front view of the sword handle so you can see how nice and symmetrical I made it, I didn't half-ass freehand it and leave it whomper-jawwed:


And so I export that to MD2, then I open it in Quark... and this...  is what the fuck happened to it during the export:


Anybody got a clue in hell what went wrong and how I can prevent this from happening? I don't think it's any kind of problem with too many triangles or vertices. Less than 1000 as you can see: