TDM vs FFA

[Punk_FAS]

I think most people that are familiar with TDM (team deathmatch, also 1v1, etc.), would agree that your average TDM player is probably quite a bit better than your average FFA player.  Why is this?

I think this has to do with the difficulty of your opponent(s), and that they're generally fairly skillfull across the board with TDM.  I think that while playing TDM, you're almost always facing against someone at least in the upper tier of FFA equivalent.  Where as in FFA, in say a game of 10 people, if you're leading the map, chances are that 5 or more of those players would give you a very minor challenge, if any, in almost any situation.  So you tend to play at the level of your opponent, and when your opponent is pressing you, challenging you, you tend be much more creative, by necessity, in order to adapt.  Sorta like survival of the fittest, you either keep up, or get left behind.  Whereas in FFA, the same ol tactics seem to work against your lesser-skilled players, again and again.

I think a lot of TDM'ers seem to think that FFA, the very basis of that type of a game, is detrimental to skills.  I disagree.  I think the #1 factor is the level of difficulty in your opponents, like I said above, which continues to make TDM players better and better.  What do you guys think?  Do you think if more TDM'ers played FFA, and more really good players played FFA, that your average FFA player would gradually get near the TDM'ers in skill?  Or must you play TDM style games, on that platform, to reach the level your average TDM'er has reached?

I really like the FFA format.  It's crazy, fast, all reactions, little trickery, a lot more firefights, and less easy kills, unless you're camping, etc.  TDM is more slow if you ask me, if you die, and your teammate is in trouble too, you have to sneak around, wait for a weapon to respawn, stock up on armor etc, before you decide to pursue another frag.  With FFA, at least with maps you're familiar with, you go get the weapon you like, and go find someone to launch it at.  Much less worried about dying in FFA I think.  Go charging in, guns a blazin, tear crap up.  No need to show any restraint, everything you see is fair game =)  I like that.

I think TDM is a much more controlled environment though.  Whereas FFA is more chaotic, stuff going on all around you, no teammate to back you up.  I think a lot of TDM'ers get annoyed by this lack of control in FFA, and that's one reason they prefer TDM.  They like to win on their terms, and FFA doesn't always allow that.

Anyway, just pondering stuff, wanted to type it out, share your thoughts on this topic, thanks.

[vibes]

My experience exactly. 


Peace

[Remedy]

I think a lot of TDM'ers seem to think that FFA, the very basis of that type of a game, is detrimental to skills.

I don't think that's entirely correct, I play FFA quite a bit (as Remedy usually) and it hasnt ever done anything to my 1v1 or TDMing skills, usually when I play FFA its because I either don't want to try to get a TDM going (because of the amount of time on irc you have to spend waiting and pming people trying to get a game going) or because I want an easy way to practice to keep my game up. I find that if I don't play 30 mins to an hour of q2 a week, 5 days a week, my tdm playing is sloppy and I make rookie mistakes during matches that could very well cost the game. Mind you I'm talking about league games, I could really care less about messing up in a scrim or a mixed pickup. When there's no league going on I'm usually just screwing around in q2.

Also, 3 weeks or a month prior to quakecon 2005 I saw doze repetedly playing FFA at "Edge Madhouse" getting ready for that event. He came in second (and only because purri was there) winning like 7 grand or someshit. If FFA is good enough for him to win that money, I don't really think it could hurt your game that much.

Do you think if more TDM'ers played FFA, and more really good players played FFA, that your average FFA player would gradually get near the TDM'ers in skill?  Or must you play TDM style games, on that platform, to reach the level your average TDM'er has reached?

Yes I do think it would work like that, but with the way TDM'ers talk to most FFA players trying to convert over, it's never going to happen.

Think about it, you see a first timer come in, join a game of edge pickup 3v3, no one knows who he is, his team mates have to explain to him how to ready up after being repetedly asked "wtf his problem is" -so then the game gets going, he goes like 1-30, everyone calls him a newb and then next game they lock the teams so he can't even play. This is the reason TDM only gets like 1 new player a year (2005 it was adam lol) and it kinda sux.

Anyways, there's my 2 cents

[daelmun]

Yeah, you got a good point when it comes to the matching, in FFA you can play with 2-3 or so players who are higher skilled than you, and still get a good score not even fragging either of them once, by just focusing on the lesser skilled players on the servers to get the frags. So even though there are good players on the server, that wont necessarily mean it's harder to get frags for everyone else as long as there is a certain amount of lesser skilled players present. Besides, you can always wait for a battle to be finished before entering it, killing the last survivor quite easily, regardless how good he is. When there are 10 players or more on a server, you can't avoid fragging someone. I think this is a good reason a lot of people prefer FFA, it's a game where everyone can frag someone, but it's still fairly hard to reach the top of the scoreboard if good players are present.

In TDM it's a bit different, first off you're pretty much forced to face the strong players on the server unless you're playing with them on a stacked team. You can't really rely on gathering a lot of frags the way you do in FFA by killing the lowerskilled players, as there are fewer opponents and probably fewer lesser skilled players, and the fact that it is alot harder for you to get a decent weapon. You can see great players struggle with even getting 5+ frags in a 10 minute game in TDM, in a normal FFA game that wouldn't be the case.

Anyway, think the difference is best illustrated like this: I played Punk in FFA just an hour or so ago, and when we were only 2 on the server I had a hard time getting frags at all because punk is a good player with good aim and he always outrailed me. But as soon as a third player joined up, regardless his skill, I found it easier to get a frag on either of them because his attentioned was moved from one target to two targets which made it a lot easier for me to play. I could basically stay on the distance firing rails at them when the two of them were battling it out and actually frag both of them if lucky. In FFA you're rarely singled out, in TDM it happens all the time.

The non confrontational way FFA can be played probably is one of the reasons some people think it is hard to determine two players skill in FFA. In TDM you can for instance determine it by a 1v1 game, FFA just seems a bit too random

[daelmun]

Also, 3 weeks or a month prior to quakecon 2005 I saw doze repetedly playing FFA at "Edge Madhouse" getting ready for that event. He came in second (and only because purri was there) winning like 7 grand or someshit. If FFA is good enough for him to win that money, I don't really think it could hurt your game that much.

He also played a whole lot of duels on the qcon maps to prepare, so he wasn't only playing FFA. But think he wanted to play FFA to sharpen his aim and

[{TNP}Dukie]

Anyway, think the difference is best illustrated like this: I played Punk in FFA just an hour or so ago, and when we were only 2 on the server I had a hard time getting frags at all because punk is a good player with good aim and he always outrailed me. But as soon as a third player joined up, regardless his skill, I found it easier to get a frag on either of them because his attentioned was moved from one target to two targets which made it a lot easier for me to play. I could basically stay on the distance firing rails at them when the two of them were battling it out and actually frag both of them if lucky. In FFA you're rarely singled out, in TDM it happens all the time.

Exactly!
I have no ping or aim only experience.
If I'm playing 1v1 I lose because of the reasons stated above.
If I'm in FFA with 3-10 players I have a chance to actually get things done by specifically avoiding all 1v1 confrontations and always looking to mpo up after  a fight or either bust in on someone elses fight ans steal their kill.
Once the number of players gets up over 10 I start losing any advantage I had just by the sheer chaos that is going on around me.

I like 3-10

[inhuman]

i always wondered what the hell "TDM" stood for. thanks to me noobie ways, i always thought of it as tourney death match, lol

now can anyone tell me what "NA" stands for?

 

[daelmun]

TDM = team death match
NA = North America

and some call TDM GX
GX = gamers extreme (another tourney like mod)

[10zx]

TDM is like a stradegy game
FFA is just winging it..

and you're right about level of competition bringing up your game..

[[BTF] Reflex]

no shit,  nice screeny!

[[BTF]Sigma]

Wow, great thread.

I see 1v1/TDM and FFA/RA2 in two totally different lights.

And I am going to boil down my repsonses to two things that I like/dislike about them.


TDM/1v1

[li]Completely Skill Based[/li]
[li]Excitingly Tense[/li]
[li]Frustrating[/li]
[li]Taken far too seriously[/li]
[/list]

FFA/RA2

[li]Levelled playing field with +ws[/li]
[li]A jump-in anytime type of game[/li]
[li]Can get far to crowded[/li]
[li]Can get a little boring[/li]
[/list]


In 1v1 I can notice who's good and who's not quite quickly. This can lead me to join-in only when I see people of my own skill in a server, usually these ppl are FFA'ers I have played against. This can lead up to some very fun matches, both of us trying to play it like an exact opposite of FFA. (To me this means FFA=offensive, 1v1 = Defensive) After every frag there's usually a "N1" or a "GS" thrown up. I like that about FFA's, there's alot more recognition for the killer frag.

When I'm playing a 1v1 match I just have the focus to zone in on one target, this gets very frustrating (to the point of the vid of that germanian-devil). I prefer to keep things fun for both people involved. Say, if I'm being dominating in a 1v1: It's really frustrating. There are no weapons around to use, that armor's gone, and I usually have the low-ground. If I poke my head out, I'm dead. What makes it worse for me to see is that there are people out there who are actually enjoying playing a game like that. Where they are spawn raping and dominating to the point of the score being around: 3-37. Then they go around and brag/demean the other player. "n00b!, lamer!, damn you suck!" etc. Even the guy who didn't win can get all bent out of shape and start flaming back, "BOT!! GEEK!! LOSER!!" That's what I don't like about 1v1 games. It's taken far to seriously, it is still just a game.

In FFA's the frustration of not having anything to shoot with or being shot within the first few seconds of spawning is reduced by quite alot when things like spawn protect and weaponstay is on. You can see games that you start off by getting schooled, but then turn it right around once you warm up. This, through my eyes, is far more appealing for someone who wants to hop into a game and play hard.

[jägermonsta]

You can't really compare FFA to RA2 I'm sorry, they're two totaly different games. Comparing any of these mods togather, saying one takes more skill then the other is rather asinine in it self. They are all different games and each game is played differently. I've seen plently of TDM players come into the FFA and get mopped because they can't 'control the map' like they would

[[BTF]Sigma]

You can't really compare FFA to RA2 I'm sorry, they're two totaly different games.

My appologies. I didn't clarify.

I drew my comparison to those two games because both of them are about combat and aim more than they are about map control and jumps

[plastik]

I believe there is up and downs to both TDM and FFA.  Basicly, it's 2 completely different skill sets. 
TDM people listen to sounds more than FFA people, but that is understandable, since in FFA everything is moving by soo quickly most of the time that you really don't have too much time to sit and wait for sounds.  FFA allows more targets at once than TDM, so a person has a higher chance of fragging more people per minute than as TDM, but this does not really seperate who is better skilled.  Some parts of TDM and FFA not only suit peoples skills, but also their liking.   This is why I believe TDM and FFA players are soo split.  you can throw a TDM player into an FFA, and vice versa, and they could they could lose considerably.  Most TDM or 1VS1 is semi-camping, more so than FFA.  In FFA people are just out there fragging all that they can, but in TDM, people are hiding, crouching, sneaking, and listening to sounds.  Some enjoy the faster pace of FFA, so they play.  Some enjoy the slower pace of TDM, so they play.  I don't know where I'm going with all this, except...I think you really can't compare the two very well.

[Punk_FAS]

For me, I only enjoy FFA if it's a fair challenge.  Like if I'm on the SP map tasty server, and there are no bunny-hoppers/strafe runners on the map, and mostly just newer players running around, I get bored quick.  If I had my choice I'd love to play FFA almost all the time with say 5-6 other players all better than me.  I love getting into duels, or showdowns in FFA matches.  Of course many many times, a stray rocket comes in from behind ya, just as you're about to kill the other guy.  That gets a little annoying sometimes, but is part of FFA.

My ideal FFA environment would be, like I said, 5-6 other players near my skill level, or a bit better.  Nobody camping for easy frags, and a quick bloated score (which I refuse to do if that's what it takes to win, boring to me, and not rewarding).  Therefore everybody stays moving, not waiting in high traffic areas only for easy frags, and actually getting kills in all corners of the map.  This makes the showdowns/duels much more varied, which keeps things interesting.  I guess I probably like the RA2 style of play.  Where you both have weapons, armor, equal footing (save ping, system, etc.), and duke it out that way.

I have been finding myself going on the TDM servers more often lately though, to play the better players, and become a better player myself.