Author Topic: Morality - Christianity / Judaism / Islam  (Read 7189 times)

Offline Kami

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Morality - Christianity / Judaism / Islam
« on: March 09, 2011, 07:01:58 AM »
does god dictate morality?

or

is god dictated by morality?


and other religious morality discussion
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Offline [BTF] Reflex

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Re: Morality - Christianity / Judaism / Islam
« Reply #1 on: March 09, 2011, 08:19:02 AM »
Morality is in the eye of the beholder.
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Offline reaper

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Re: Morality - Christianity / Judaism / Islam
« Reply #2 on: March 09, 2011, 10:43:56 AM »
There could be universal morality in my opinion.
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Offline |iR|Focalor

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Re: Morality - Christianity / Judaism / Islam
« Reply #3 on: March 09, 2011, 12:11:29 PM »
I tend to think of it in terms of:

Morality: a society's accepted code of conduct as dictated by religion.

Ethics: acceptable interpersonal conduct as dictated by civilized society.

By this definition, ethics does not attempt to dictate what an individual subjects himself to.
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Offline Kami

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Re: Morality - Christianity / Judaism / Islam
« Reply #4 on: March 09, 2011, 12:40:21 PM »
There could be universal morality in my opinion.

by universal morality, do you mean that god is subject to this universal morality too?  or does he invent these rules?  that is my question.

Morality is in the eye of the beholder.

in islam's sha'ria law it's perfectly acceptable and infact encouraged for men to dominate their women into subjugation.  i hold that the subjugation of autonomy is immoral.  in all cases, once we understood the autonomy of slaves, we rid ourselves of the terrible ignorance.  once we realized the autonomy of women is the same as men, we allowed them to stop being property and vote in our government.

what you say by your quote is that morality is either subjective or relative.  if it is subjective, then it is meaningless as a means of self governance and how we interact with the world (both natural and social).  if it is relative, then there are many contradictory rules in this world.  this would also point to morality being meaningless if this were the case.

so i hope you're wrong about that reflex.
« Last Edit: March 09, 2011, 12:44:49 PM by Kami »
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Offline quadz

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Re: Morality - Christianity / Judaism / Islam
« Reply #5 on: March 09, 2011, 08:01:59 PM »
Morality is in the eye of the beholder.
in islam's sha'ria law it's perfectly acceptable and infact encouraged for men to dominate their women into subjugation.  i hold that the subjugation of autonomy is immoral.  in all cases, once we understood the autonomy of slaves, we rid ourselves of the terrible ignorance.  once we realized the autonomy of women is the same as men, we allowed them to stop being property and vote in our government.

what you say by your quote is that morality is either subjective or relative.  if it is subjective, then it is meaningless as a means of self governance and how we interact with the world (both natural and social).  if it is relative, then there are many contradictory rules in this world.  this would also point to morality being meaningless if this were the case.

I know I've mentioned Sam Harris' book, The Moral Landscape: How Science Can Determine Human Values, in another thread fairly recently.

But it seems particularly relevant to this thread.  I think the author succeeds in severely undermining the claims of the kinds of moral relativism and cultural relativism that would assert that there can never be any scientific basis or framework for evaluating morality, particularly when other cultures are involved.

Below is an excerpt from an introductory chapter of the book, culminating in a rather astonishing exchange between the author and prominent member of the scientific community:







As a side note, while the book isn't exactly light reading, I've had several belly laughs throughout resulting from Sam Harris' arch turns of phrase.  An example above being, "... her liberal views on compulsory veiling and ritual enucleation, ..." :dohdohdoh: :evilgrin:


Regards,

 :beer:

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Offline QwazyWabbit

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Re: Morality - Christianity / Judaism / Islam
« Reply #6 on: March 09, 2011, 09:18:15 PM »
"If thyne eye offends thee, pluck it out."

Quite interesting. I might have to buy that book.

The Old Testament said return eye for eye and tooth for tooth.
The New Testament said turn the other cheek.
Sharia says, be meek and passive when you are the minority in the land, be aggressive, rigid, intolerant and dogmatic when you are in the majority.
All are "divine law" which is always "absolute truth"... as long as your ox is not being gored.
 
As for absolute morality: "Do unto others as you would have them do unto you."

In other words, what goes around, comes around. So if you want good things from others, do good things for others. Anything else is just evil.
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Offline |iR|Focalor

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Re: Morality - Christianity / Judaism / Islam
« Reply #7 on: March 09, 2011, 11:19:16 PM »
As for absolute morality: "Do unto others as you would have them do unto you."

In other words, what goes around, comes around. So if you want good things from others, do good things for others. Anything else is just evil.

I don't really need people doing nice things for me. I'd settle for "Don't do stupid shit to me that you know you'll hate for me to do to you... because I fucking will." I know, it's probably too much to ask for in this day and age. I still got my dreams though.
« Last Edit: March 09, 2011, 11:25:53 PM by |iR|Focalor »
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Offline QwazyWabbit

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Re: Morality - Christianity / Judaism / Islam
« Reply #8 on: March 10, 2011, 12:32:30 AM »
I knew you would have a more interesting way to say it. :) I thought doing doing good things to others sounded a little dirty.  :bigshades:
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Offline [BTF] Reflex

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Re: Morality - Christianity / Judaism / Islam
« Reply #9 on: March 16, 2011, 05:30:45 AM »
There could be universal morality in my opinion.

by universal morality, do you mean that god is subject to this universal morality too?  or does he invent these rules?  that is my question.

Morality is in the eye of the beholder.

in islam's sha'ria law it's perfectly acceptable and infact encouraged for men to dominate their women into subjugation.  i hold that the subjugation of autonomy is immoral.  in all cases, once we understood the autonomy of slaves, we rid ourselves of the terrible ignorance.  once we realized the autonomy of women is the same as men, we allowed them to stop being property and vote in our government.

what you say by your quote is that morality is either subjective or relative.  if it is subjective, then it is meaningless as a means of self governance and how we interact with the world (both natural and social).  if it is relative, then there are many contradictory rules in this world.  this would also point to morality being meaningless if this were the case.

so i hope you're wrong about that reflex.

Not used to people responding to my meaningless spam  :)  But..

      I think you make the case for what I meant even better than I did.  To an islamic male the sharia law may be perfectly moral while to a christian male it would seem immoral.  It's 'in they eye of the beholder' in that respect.   I find it acceptable to kill a cow, slice it up, and dehydrate it into jerky.  While my vegetarian wife might think it's immoral to kill any of gods creatures for a purpose that could be met by another means.

      If there is a god,  to stay with the first post, he would not need to be dictated by shit.  He would be the most moral being this or any universe has ever seen. 
The other half of your question "does god dictate morality?"    I think that's a major part of most religions,  isn't it?
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Offline reaper

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Re: Morality - Christianity / Judaism / Islam
« Reply #10 on: March 16, 2011, 09:52:14 AM »
Quote from: quadz
I know I've mentioned Sam Harris' book, The Moral Landscape: How Science Can Determine Human Values, in another thread fairly recently.

science doesn't need to, god has already done it
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Offline [BTF] Reflex

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Re: Morality - Christianity / Judaism / Islam
« Reply #11 on: March 16, 2011, 09:55:31 AM »
You mean,  he put values into every human?
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Re: Morality - Christianity / Judaism / Islam
« Reply #12 on: March 16, 2011, 11:24:30 AM »
Quote from: quadz
I know I've mentioned Sam Harris' book, The Moral Landscape: How Science Can Determine Human Values, in another thread fairly recently.

science doesn't need to, god has already done it

Science doesn't need to what?
Science has no NEEDS.

God doesn't exist.

SHUT THE FUCK UP WITH THAT RETARD SHIT.
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Offline reaper

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Re: Morality - Christianity / Judaism / Islam
« Reply #13 on: March 16, 2011, 04:02:34 PM »
Quote from: quadz
I know I've mentioned Sam Harris' book, The Moral Landscape: How Science Can Determine Human Values, in another thread fairly recently.

science doesn't need to, god has already done it

Science doesn't need to what?
Science has no NEEDS.

God doesn't exist.

SHUT THE FUCK UP WITH THAT RETARD SHIT.

You can try and understand morals all you want, but god has already set them up properly.   In other words there's little need to try and figure them out, they've already been handed down.

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Offline [BTF]Sigma

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Re: Morality - Christianity / Judaism / Islam
« Reply #14 on: March 16, 2011, 05:59:17 PM »
Quote from: quadz
I know I've mentioned Sam Harris' book, The Moral Landscape: How Science Can Determine Human Values, in another thread fairly recently.

science doesn't need to, god has already done it

Science doesn't need to what?
Science has no NEEDS.

God doesn't exist.

SHUT THE FUCK UP WITH THAT RETARD SHIT.

You can try and understand morals all you want, but god has already set them up properly.   In other words there's little need to try and figure them out, they've already been handed down.



I hereby challenge you to list the moral tenets and precepts that only the Christians teach, moral precepts that nobody else brought to the world.
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