religion - coping mechanism. we need to grow up.

[|iR|Focalor]

I think in the future, they'll find a way to medically alter the penis to where it rolls in and out like a birthday kazoo to make it easier to reach.

Until then, it's acrobat fucking.

[Kami]

Oh, I was so torn before I read this thread.  Thanks for solving a question humanity has been arguing over since the begining.   I look forward to you citing your ultimate proof of zero creator though, ready to read it when you post it.

i don't have to have proof of nothing being there if there is originally no reason to believe something is there.

if i told you where atlantis was on earth, you'd naturally tell me to give you proof.  i dont have proof of it now, it's long gone.  but then how would i have known?  other people said it was there.  what lead them to say it was there?  at some time it was necessary to explain some point.  it was a legend.  a myth.  there was probably a real city that it was based on, but that in and of itself doesn't matter so much as the fact that people say there was a sunken city.

in this case, why would you need to prove to me that atlantis (as is talked about as a mythical sunken city) didn't exist when I am the one making the claim that it did?  similarly, i do not need to disprove god to show that god does not matter in our trivial affairs. 

what im talking about is organized religion and has nothing to do with god (ironically enough).  essentially religion is only harmful to the human condition when it attempts to impose an order on humanity that is essentially derived, not inherent.  that is to say, i may arbitrarily tell you that a kind of bird is sacred and you may not kill it for any reason whereas others are free game.  this example shows the absurdity of such an order.  however, other orders, such as stem cell research, even though we now have a much better understanding of when sentience occurs in the womb, can put a stop to a very prospective science that could easily lead to the curing or treatment of several illnesses/diseases.  in such a case, why are we imposed by an order of authority interpreted by men who have not a lick of expertise in such a subject?

to simplify, i have no real grudge against someone who believes in a creator.  i do, however, have a grudge against someone who tells me that i have to do what this creator has supposedly imposed on humanity.

[Tubby]

i submit that science must not co-exist with a religion

Why not? Can't a person who believes that the process of Darwinian evolution is equal in awe and might to that of any supernatural god be considered 'religious' in your interpretation of that word?

[|iR|Focalor]

Can't you stop asking questions about everything?

[BIG DICK RICK]

He's just trying to start up another 10 page thread by being an idiot.  Don't bother replying to him and feeding into his bullshit.  It doesn't matter how right you are, even if you include proof/documentation that you are 100% right, you'll still be wrong because he loves to argue.  Tubby knows all, that is all.

[yahoo]

 

[|iR|Focalor]

Is he really trying to start another 10 page thread? Does Tubby know everything? Is it true that tubby loves to argue?

[BIG DICK RICK]

Maybe Foc, just maybe....

[|iR|Focalor]

But why? We must question all things. This leads to interesting conversation.

[QwazyWabbit]

It can be taken on faith that unquestioning minds are not asking the proper questions. Without questions, where is the debate? It's indebatable that the concepts behind the questions are to be questioned and debated in long forum topics.

[Kami]

i submit that science must not co-exist with a religion

Why not? Can't a person who believes that the process of Darwinian evolution is equal in awe and might to that of any supernatural god be considered 'religious' in your interpretation of that word?

for a quick answer, you are posting off-topic.  this topic is about how organized religion and the religion of the unquestioning are attempting to destroy our intellectual and scientific progress.

there is a part of the brain that handles a religious feeling of awe of the intricacies of the universe.  this is not necessary for god to be apart of.  so, no, its not the same.  you're applying a stickynote of god on something that is complete as is.  whether some form of belief is accepted in the precursor to such a thing or not has nothing to do with the original idea.  the idea is beautiful as it is. 

slapping god on it makes it less beautiful.  the idea that everything that we have come to be started with the simplest of the simple, and through millions and millions of years to adapt, change, and conform to the world, that these simple beings become more and more efficient to the point where we can manipulate the world around us is nothing short of a miracle.  to say god did it takes away the miracle.  miracles should belong to the statistically impossible, to the happenings against astronomical odds.  if an omnipotent being does this, then it is nothing more than an example of its obviously omnipotent power.  this ability would be incredible relative to us, but only relative to us.  it does not need any complexity or intricacy to perform, and remains only a reinforcement of its already understood omnipotence.  i'd really like to have the word miracle taken back from the religious.

in summation, it can be sufficient to attribute the awe of an intricate concept as a religious experience, but it is not necessary.  your point tries to equate any and all awe with that of religion.  i have made no such mention that i define religion as such a thing because it is not necessary.

-------

the religion that is being talked about is the religion of the unquestioning belief and of invisible tyrannical shackles on the mind of humanity.  the religion that is being talked about is the one that attempts to subvert any and all achievement that goes against the arbitrary rules of a deity created by man in his most primitive stages in order to accept a place that is no longer necessary.  i don't care if you choose to impose upon yourself such things, but with most religion this is not so.

christianity continues to attempt to rewrite morality in order to keep itself alive; not for the good of humanity.  what good are men with power who continually tell us stem cell research is immoral.  it requires that even though our definitions of family change we must hold to some religiously acceptable family and make it a point to prevent anyone who tries differently to have any happiness in a relationship.  that we should halt scientific progress when it contradicts the bible or commonly accepted christian belief.

islam tyrannically controls the people that belong to it.  it requires that women are to be property and controlled at all times.  that the infidels and unbelievers be made to believe or sent to hell.  that our current life has no real meaning and no consequences, enabling its believers a free pass to commit terrible offenses against their neighbors.

judaism inflicts upon us the ideal that they are the chosen people of their god, making them more important than others.  that they get away with crimes against humanity only because they are retaliating against the people who hate them for the sole reason of jealousy.  that they are allowed to subvert anyone and everyone around them because such are ideologically inferior so these chosen people are allowed to take peoples' land and starve them of their own resources.

if you do not wish to mature as a human and continue to attribute certain aspects of our existence to something we have had no reason to believe past our primitive years, that is your choice.  but such beliefs often come with a list of rules that tend to be imposed on those who have no claim to such a god or doctrine.  if there is a percentage of people who are bound by these terms, it also means a percentage of people who will never contribute to the advancement of the human race.  there are few religions that do not fit this role; those that are allowed to evolve with humanity and do nothing to inhibit it.  but these are the exceptions, not the rule.

i think i am rightly pissed off when the advancement of the species i belong to is hindered because of a bunch of people who refuse to mature.

[[BTF]adam]

i'll post my exceptionally ignorant and narrow minded approach to religion and summarise why i think the way i do about it. ps i read about circumcision here, foreskin 4 lyfe.

i used to be a christian, not in the sense that i went to church or anything like that but i believed there must be a god, for no particular reason other than there just 'must be'. then everything awful that has happened around/to me happened and i pretty much do not believe there is a god, under the amazingly broad and common phrase 'well if there is a god then why did/does x happen'. overall i just think there is so much suffering in this here world to justify there being a worshippable god. dads heart failed when i was 14 years old, why? because he was an alcoholic and went on a ridiculously bad binge and his body crapped out on him, my lines of thinking are like, if there was a god couldnt he have stopped him doing it? have him see what he was doing was a bad idea? apparently not. i know there are a million and one flaws with this type of rationality but its all i know because i do not care to read into it anymore than that. mums partner of 12 years and little brothers dad in a fatal car accident because some drugged up cunt decided to drive that day on the same road, again, why? you don't need a life story but apply this to every truly shit awful thing that has happened to you and there you have it, that is why i no longer appreciate religion or personally see it as having any merit. fuck gods 'plan'.

have fun rippin that apart lol

[|iR|Focalor]

Or maybe, just maybe, certain people are too intelligent and rational to believe in fairy tales, myths, and pipe dreams. Like the title of the thread implies... time to grow up, son.

[Kami]

that's quite possibly 90% of the reason people do not believe in god.

i can't agree with you there.  perhaps you mean to say that that's 90% of the reason people go from christianity to atheist.  a story like adam's serves as a wake up call in scrutinizing your own existence.  and once the scrutiny has been done, you realize that god may be sufficient for creation and morality, and everything else we attribute to him, but its not necessary.  and at this point, because the person holds that a god is not necessary for these things to happen, due to the chain of events, perhaps the individual at this point does not want a god to exist; at least none of the ones he knows of.

i was different.  i was once catholic, however i am a very logical person.  i might be an ass to people, but people usually more or less deserve it.  the thing that drove me off the religious path was a simple fact.

the universe amazes me, i think its beautiful.  all of this doctrine about god creating this one blip of data in nothingness, statistically 0 in the long run, and somehow his graces shine over it moreso than anything else?  that we are the only ones, even smaller though than a particle in our own world, in the universe?  it does not make sense.  religious doctrine did not account for this and had no reason to.  scientific knowledge has increased exponentially, and is able to explain things we once thought were unexplainable.  now that we understand the universe is knowable and explainable, religion is no longer necessary for me.  i am as easily in awe'd with the universe as a religious person could be awe'ed by their god.  i find satisfaction and meaning in life as (albeit as insignificant as we are) the universe's attempt at observing itself.  we are cast from the same mold and made by the stuff of stars.  it's pretty amazing what we are, without having to be god's creation or anything else for that matter.

[Kami]

being in continual pursuit of answers is my idea of a heaven.  a place the human curiosity is forever fed and never spent.

If people don't believe in a god then they can easily say the rules are dogma and can do what they please, basing it on their own subjective reasoning. thus, encouraging more chaos in the world. not to say that all athiests are immoral

we were having such a nice discussion too :\  would you agree that the person who does the right thing when no one is looking is more of a moral person than the person who does the right thing because someone else is watching?  the answer is yes.  why?  because to do the right thing is simply to do the right thing.  it involves your action as well as your motive.  this would be considered the most moral perspective. 

in a christian's case, there are 10 commandments among other rules.  if you break these commandments, you are likely sent to hell or will suffer some divine retribution.  this is no different than me putting a gun to your head and telling you to feed a bunch of homeless people.  after you're done, are you a moral person because of what you did?  no, i had a gun to your head.  i was obviously controlling your situation.  to do the right thing for no other reason other than that it is the right thing, is moral.  to do the right thing just because you kind of want to avoid being sent to hell is motivation, and thus you are not doing it for the sake of doing the right thing.

and atheists only have more of a chance to be more moral people if they do moral things without the eye of god looking over their shoulders.  to do the right thing without any benefit or consequence, in the face of even personal harm, that is being truly moral; it is not doing something because god told you what happens if you don't.