What's Up with Toyota?

[ReCycled]

I'm watching this news story this morning about this guy in a Prius apparently speeding along helplessly with the throttle on full blast zooming down the highway at up to 100 mph. So much difficulty that the police had to intervene. It never occured to the news reporter to wonder why the white-haired gentleman didn't simply turn off his ignition. I guess it made more sense to drive for miles and miles.

Supposedly a lot of Toyota cars have "unintended acceleration". This is deja vu all over again. Let's go back to the mid-80s when it was discovered that Audis (the 5000 model) also could "take off" on it's own with the driver unable to stop the vehicle. Audi checked their cars very thoroughly and were baffled - then angered as lawsuits were launched. Strangely in Germany where many thousands more were on the road, none of this occured. Only in the US. One woman said she was leaving a gas station when the car just accelerated away and crashed into a wall. She braked but nothing stopped it. Interesting because Audis had a 150 HP engine and the brakes were rated at 600 BHP. Meaning the engine would have to be at least 4 times more powerful to overwhelm the brakes. A month ago (before today's incident) a Canadian auto journalist tried to make a Prius accelerate ahead while his foot was on the brake. No matter what he did, he couldn't. How strange.

Anyway back to Audi, a popular Car magazine of the day set up tests in a dual control Audi (as in what a driving school uses) to see how people were driving the car. They would do stuff like - backup here, now go left over there, stop here, park there, back up here etc. Eventually a few people got the car to trigger the "unintended acceleration". With the car stopped, the instructor would ask the driver to look at their feet. There was their foot - firmly planted on the accelerator. And these same people would swear they were on their brakes. These type of drivers tended to be middle-aged women. As were the lawsuits that were filed.

And now Toyota has been making cars that will suddenly accelerate on their own and the brakes won't stop the car. Some university professor called a news conference about 2 weeks ago and said he discovered a situation when the throttle would stick wide open. Well yeah - he rewired the controls. Toyota showed this would happen in any vehicle if you purposely did that. And that this "test" was absurd in real world driving. Curiously this professor's "test" was funded by a group of litigation lawyers.

I have a Toyota and it's been one of the most reliable, well-engineered vehicles I've ever owned. A lemon Toyota is a very rare bird. Can't say that about a few domestic Chryslers and Fords I've owned. This whole thing smells to me. If the number one competitor got into trouble with consumer confidence, it would greatly benefit American car manufacturers. And the news media (American) is latching on to any story and reporting it, if it is detrimental to Toyota. It doesn't matter if nothing has been proven technically. There's something fishy here. I've seen other cars occasionally in the news over the years zooming down a highway apparently with a stuck throttle. It never occurs to these people to turn the key counter clockwise.

I had a Mazda RX7 that I was driving one day back in 90s and the engine tachometer zinged up to 8000 rpm and stayed there. I simply turned off the engine before I could ruin it and pulled over. Broken throttle spring (1984 technology). I replaced the spring with new and all was well. I didn't call Mazda or my lawyer.

[peewee_RotA]

I've heard what you are saying about the Audi accelaration problem being attributed to bad drivers and con artists. That also makes sense with today. A car unintentionally accelerating is such an incredible extreme.

As for the Americans latching onto news about foreign cars, I see no more amount of media panic now as I did a few years ago with the Ford/Firestone recall. In fact I remember that being a much bigger story.

[QwazyWabbit]

How do you explain the Lexus sudden acceleration case where the driver was an active duty, as in not elderly or female, CHP officer? Four dead.

In this Prius case the driver is quoted as saying he even reached down with his hand to pull the accellerator pedal up. Brakes were smoking. CHP officer smelled them. Remedy was to put the crusier in front and assist breaking to safe speed so driver could turn off ignition. Ignition is a pushbutton. I am not sure what happens to power breaking and steering when you kill it at speed.

I see possible multple failure modes here. Some are floormats, some are driver error, some are sticky returns, some are electronic. The simple explanations are dealt with first, now it's escalated to mechanical, next comes the software review. Only a complete and independent examination of the control systems and software in those cars will uncover flaws there.

This Prius case is interesting because the vehicle is intact and they can dump the black box data and hopefully detect a latch-up or a race condition.

Unfortunately Toyota is in damage control mode so the truth will be mired in politics and pecuniary interest.

[UUD-40]

Yeah, really, its no big deal if your engine is stuck at wot.  
http://www.10news.com/news/20609225/detail.html

[[BTF]Defiant!]

Yeah, really, its no big deal if your engine is stuck at wot.  
http://www.10news.com/news/20609225/detail.html

brakes, ebrake, neutral (or reverse or park), grind against a guard rail, remove keys (throw out window if wireless connected), ..

[quadz]

I've seen other cars occasionally in the news over the years zooming down a highway apparently with a stuck throttle. It never occurs to these people to turn the key counter clockwise.

I really wondered about that after the crash that killed a family of four here last summer.

Thing was, there were three adults in the car, and reportedly they were driving around with the accel. stuck for several minutes, having worn down the brakes to the point that witnesses described seeing "smoke or flames emanating from the front end and underside" of the vehicle.

It's difficult to believe that in all that time, none of the adults would have thought of turning the ignition off or putting it in neutral.  They sound (relatively) calm in the 911 call they made right before the fatal crash.

On the other hand, it was a "loaner" car from the dealership, and uses a keyless ignition.  According to one blog, when asked how to turn off the engine on the Lexus ES350 when it’s moving, the answer from a spokesman at the service dept. was, “You push the button on the dashboard and hold it for 5 seconds.” Toyota says the delay is to prevent “inadvertent activation” of the button.  [Note: Most other reports, including the police report, cite the delay as 3 seconds, not 5 seconds.]

In any case, I could at least understand how someone panicking in a loaner car could have tried to turn it off and given up, thinking the keyless ignition was nonfunctional, not realizing how long the button needed to be held down.

But that still doesn't account for not being able to put it in neutral, or even progressively downshifting into a low gear.

Interestingly the police report includes an interview with someone (F. Bernard) who had previously had a stuck accelerator experience with this *same vehicle* on loan from the same dealership.

In Bernard's account, 'While he was slowing, he pushed the ignition button "a few times" and was not able to turn the engine off. He also "popped the throttle" with his foot to see if he could get it to clear itself. None of this worked.'

However, Bernard was able to slow down to about 25-30 MPH, pull over to the shoulder, and shift into neutral.

"Witness Bernard looked down at his feet and saw the accelerator was stuck underneath the floor mat. He was able to pull it up with his foot, and said he had to apply a significant amount of pressure to do so. He then reached down and pulled the mat back and away from the accelerator. The mat was pushed forward. Witness Bernard did not think it was clipped because he was able to move the mat. After clearing the mat, he continued driving with no other problems."

The report continues: "I asked Witness Bernard about his use of the push button ignition when he tried to cut the engine of V1. He explained he pushed the button in a series of intermittent successions. I asked him if he ever pushed and held the ignition to turn off V1. He said he did not. I asked him if he was aware of the practice of holding the button for at least three seconds to cut the engine while the car is in gear. He said he was not."

"As far as his braking of V1, Witness Bernard explained he did not 'pump' the brakes. He used steady constant pressure and was able to slow V1. He said he pressed hard and steady and ultimately was able to stop V1."

  *  *  *

OK, well.  Given that was reportedly the *exact same car* that was later in the fatal accident, it would indeed seem like the driver who died probably hadn't tried to shift into neutral. 

Bummer.

[UUD-40]

Yeah, really, its no big deal if your engine is stuck at wot.  
http://www.10news.com/news/20609225/detail.html

brakes, ebrake, neutral (or reverse or park), grind against a guard rail, remove keys (throw out window if wireless connected), ..

All very effective, but I doubt my grandma would do either one.

[quadz]

remove keys (throw out window if wireless connected), ..

Interesting.  I'm almost entirely unfamiliar with wireless/keyless ignitions.  Unfamiliar with the technology as I am, I don't think it would have remotely occurred to me to throw the keys out the window.  

Does that really work?  Somehow I wouldn't be surprised if some manufacturers essentially ignore the absense of signal from the keys once the car is running and in gear (?)

[QwazyWabbit]

I'm not sure what happens to a running car. I had a Toyota in Texas for a few weeks. Nissan too. You keep the key in your pocket and you can unlock the car or the trunk with a single button on the door. Ignition is a push button. I tried to leave the key in my laptop bag and toss it in the trunk, the trunk wouldn't even latch closed. The car knew the key was in the trunk!

[ReCycled]

I didn't mention the NEUTRAL solution because it's so obvious that if a driver couldn't think of even that, they must be in some kind of panic funk, in which no common sense gets through. Also many people fear pushing the lever to neutral, thinking they will push too hard and jam it into REVERSE. I think all automatic transmissions these days will NOT actually go into reverse above a certain speed. Also I believe those driver mats in the Lexus were after market, not OE.
But I'm seeing an awful lot of Toyota car stories in the news or on CNN every week on a regular basis. And it seems it's deliberately meant to imply there are serious problems with the safety of their cars, and have been for some time. Their CEO's were brought in to testify in Congress like they were little children. Audi was almost ruined in North America in 1985 by unfair bullshit and litigation lawyers. Almost, but not quite. There seems to be a very willing acceptance to assume everything reported must be true, and tears won't be shed if the biggest non-American car company suffers greatly.

[|iR|Focalor]

The accelerator pedal never sticks on my...



Buy American, you twits. My grandfather didn't slay japs in Okinawa and bathe in blood so I could buy their cars and make em rich.

[The Happy Friar]

I'd say that there's enough of an issue with the Toyota's that there is reason for a recall.   People aren't getting the law of averages though.... there's millions more cards sold today then 10 years ago.  Of course if there's an issue it will effect a greater number of people.  1% of 1million is greater then 1% of 1000.

But if you listen to some of these drivers you'll realize that a lot of this could of been avoided (the accidents, etc).  They didn't even read the MANUAL.  It tells what to do in case you're accelerating to fast, it tells how to turn the car off, all those other little tidbits.  How many of these drivers even know what the lights on their dashboard mean?  I'm also surprised nobody's bothered cracking toyota's computer codes.  People in this country regularly hack all kinds of devices & nobody bothered hacking toyota's codes?  Maybe this is a good reason to take a look at the DMCA & see if it should be changed somewhat.   

I'd say this isn't like the SUV "issues" of years past where you had idiots driving vehicles they didn't know how to drive & caused accidents, I'd say this is where you have "average" drivers driving cars & issues arise & they don't actually know how to handle it.  At work we had a vehicle loose it's breaks while I was driving it (granted, only 10mph) but I know how to stop it so it wouldn't kill anyone or smash in to a building!  Yeah, downshifting in 90mph could kill the transmission but at that point, if you're worried you're going to do, so what?

EDIT: btw, the accel never sticks in my

[|iR|Focalor]

I'm also surprised nobody's bothered cracking toyota's computer codes.  People in this country regularly hack all kinds of devices & nobody bothered hacking toyota's codes?  Maybe this is a good reason to take a look at the DMCA & see if it should be changed somewhat.   

Those aftermarket computer hacks can usually save you money on gas by increasing the air to fuel ratio, especially in notorious gas chuggers like a Dodge Ram (which I also own). In the past when I was putting around 1000 miles a week on my truck, I was tempted to get one since a large chunk of my weekly paycheck was getting chewed up at the pumps. I decided not to for two reasons.

1. I'm fairly sure it would've voided the warranty.
2. It can run it a little leaner than it's been tested to function. It may perform fine for a while, but long-term it can potentially burn out the valves and damage the engine leading to very costly repairs.

They usually do give you the option of disabling the governor. Not exactly necessary, but still useful on occasion... also potentially dangerous if you're a shitty driver. I know my Ram will cut the fuel as soon as the speedometer hits 105mph and won't engage again until it falls back to 100mph. I believe Ford Rangers cut at 95mph. Probably a good idea not to attempt any more than 95mph unless you're on a straight expressway with little or no traffic since the 4wd drive versions sit a little higher and have crappy suspensions.

[haunted]

Toyotas and hondas will last a lifetime, literally. Fords are Fixed Or Repaired Daily or Found On Road Dead(couldn't help myself, H.F.)

Are transmission fluid and brake fluid connected in any of these new cars..as is the same fluid/reservoir used for both? A hydraulic leak in the clutch of my 97 Toyota tacoma would cause my truck to kick into gear in neutral(in gear, but the clutch in all the way) resulting in unexpected acceleration at low speeds. Of course this is avoidable by just putting it totally in neutral, but then just as often you wouldn't be able to shift it into gear(similar to a throw out bearing/joint going out..). Anyway, the same fluid is used for both my brake and my clutch so consequently they were acting up as well. I'm just making discussion more than anything though, I know about cars as much as your average person(not too much)!

[ReCycled]

Hehe...Toyota Tacoma. That's the other vehicle I own. It's a '99 I bought 4 years ago and it's bulletproof.

But I guess all the fuss these days is on the newer technology cars. I'm still trying to figure out why the Cali Prius driver didn't pop it into neutral after driving for a few miles at hyper speed. It might not flash in your mind at first, but after a minute or two? And are the brakes on that thing so weak they can't haul the car down to a standstill? There's something about that incident that doesn't add up....