qvis3.exe - how long is too long?

[PANTONE 7717C]

Hey now, that looks not bad at all:)  But I see you're using the lazy-man's big-box method:P, that's never a good thing with open maps like this because all it does is add to the total Vis datasize. It's useless space that is not being cutt off because it forms a closed off space between the actual playing field and the outer box. If it´s there to plug a leak it will definitely hurt performance.

I decompiled the bsp to map and found that some of the floorbrushes underneath the water have the 'window' flag. That's probably the reason for the leak. If you want send me the .map file and I'll make it leakfree without that box and clean up some of the brushwork without changing the appearance.

At first I thought the only problem was the vis-time but it seems the performance is pretty bad. So whether or not you set more stuff as detail it will still have the same performance problem, but it will help reduce vis-time. Best thing to do is fix the leak and get rid of the outer box (and use a real skybox instead of black brushes, just go with space1 or custom sky?).

Then find ways to simplify and clean up the brushwork. Some of your brushwork is kind of sloppy, correct me if I'm wrong but I think you use the Brush Subtraction tool too much. It can make ugly cuts and creates unnecessary splits and faces. (see pic)  The green lines indicate how the brushes should have been made. I noticed there are brushes that looked like single brushes but consisted of 8 tiny pieces?? (Could be a side effect of decompiling but I guess it's actually how the map is made up).
I'm almost sure that the problem here is the leak and the many unnecessary brushfaces and splits. That is the real performance killer and causing abnormal vis-times.

[[BTF] Reflex]

  But I see you're using the lazy-man's big-box method:P ...   If it´s there to plug a leak it will definitely hurt performance.

  The outer box is there to plug a leak,  I am interested in fixing the leak. 
I did that in a rush to get vis to actually run to check out the lighting (Remember that from somewhere as a last ditch effort to do so)
This is the first time I've had to sit down this weekend..  mapping will have to wait till monday.

I decompiled the bsp to map and found that some of the floorbrushes underneath the water have the 'window' flag. That's probably the reason for the leak. If you want send me the .map file and I'll make it leakfree without that box and clean up some of the brushwork without changing the appearance.

   Not sure how the floor ended up that way,  might have happened while adding transparency to the water.   I've already set my sites on redoing the floor.
Found a ton of unexplainable cracks in it,  ill try to add a picture,   looooong skiny triangle cracks. 

  I had posted the .map file at first,  and took it down specifically for the reason of keeping you from working on it    
Want all the clicks on this one to be mine.  Not trying to be mean,  I'm really smiling at the fact you offered.

  seems the performance is pretty bad. So whether or not you set more stuff as detail it will still have the same performance problem, but it will help reduce vis-time. Best thing to do is fix the leak and get rid of the outer box (and use a real skybox instead of black brushes, just go with space1 or custom sky?).

  When peewee mentioned rspeeds I remembered such a thing,  makes ameoba.bsp unplayable.  Already started looking at trimming the fat and tidying up some things.     As for the sky,  I had changed that to e3u3's xsky1,  but space1 is perfect!   Would go with a custom black sky I have,  but keeping everything stock in this one.

..correct me if I'm wrong but I think you use the Brush Subtraction tool too much.

   If that's worldcraft's "carve" feature then yes!     Working more with the morphing and clipping tools,  gives you more power over how the shapes are made.
But the carve feature has never let me down in the final shape, morphing has had errors that made it look one way in the editor, and another in the game.

  Time to try other editors    Too comfy with worldcraft,  Lauraline liked tread for it's worldcraft-likeness,  might peek at that.
  or the ever popular quark...


The help is greatly appreciated

I'll keep updates coming

[[BTF] Reflex]

Completely redid the columns, and the brackets for the glass.

Your decompiler did those justice making them in 8 parts,  the brackets consisted of 15 individual pieces.
Could have been done that way in 3,  got it done with 1. 

there were at least 28 brackets!  Accounts for most of the 43,000 r_speeds
Nailed it down to 3100 at  the highest spot I could find.


Redid the floor and jump/spawns,  totally fixed the leak.
Can't find a suitable sky,  thought space1 was stock,  but it's not in my textures.  Stays black for now.

Some other tweaks aside, here is the work done today.
Including the .map file this time. (just to look at Panj!!!)

[PANTONE 7717C]

Yeah of course, it's best to do it yourself:) Looks nice so far man. I was about to pm you some screenshots with suggestions and some tips but you already redid the columns and stuff, which was the most important. 

As for the sky, you can apply any texture you want to your skybox! Even a brick texture, it doesn't matter as long as you set the flags to 'sky' and 'nodraw' (and 'light' if you will so you can use the main color of the texture as your skylight).
 The sky will default to unit1_. So to use the space1 sky, pick any texture for your skybox and set sky & nodraw, then in the worldspawn properties add:
key -> sky / value -> space1

ok still one last tip as i had already made some images:

[QwazyWabbit]

space1 is stock. it's in pak0.pak under env/

[[BTF] Reflex]

Todays work...   got r_times down to under 2000,   2070 at the highest spot I could find

  Trimmed all but 4 brackets (left just what I needed for broken glass effect)
 
  Took off border trim from the corners,  it was flush with the wall anyhow
 
  Took off trim along outer walkpath,  spent a looong time evening it up only to have worldcraft fudge it up
      (Looks one way in worldcraft and another way in the game (just a half unit off here and there randomly)
       map looks better without it

  Got rid of/altered/trimmed alot of the columns,  and trimmed the ones by the ramp to be shorter

  Ditched the water floor idea,  turned the middle section into grass,  turned the double doors for the spawns down to single door and darkened them.

  hmmmmm....  the overhead glass on the non ramp sides is one long piece instead of 2

  Removed alot of the broken glass, made what remained skinnier
  Removed 4 light fixtures,  took blue tint out of the ones left

added a few item ideas,  love the trap placement on the 'sky spikes'

[Whirlingdervish]

lookin good!

don't forget to flag the side walls of the sky box of the map with "sky" as well.

 

[[BTF] Reflex]

Don't talk to me about sky!   j/k    having problem with it. 

I make that box sky and it shows what's underneath it if you get up on the ledge,   think the fix has something to do with a hint brush,  but I couldn't get it.
Happy with it just black though,  I like a black sky.  The way the ledge is now,  dunno if a sky would look right...  Is it a performance hit leaving it a regular texture?

The detail thing instead of func_wall,  I see that in texture,  and I dunno if another editor has a way to do it better..  worldcraft you have to click and edit EACH face and apply the detail flag,  so that needs done still.   

Getting closer,

Found some more things that had bad cuts,  the light fixtures in ceiling were multibrush instead of one.

Slanted the sky ledge,  neat effect seen from floor if someone goes up there...

Tentative xatrix item placement

removed some leftover tiny brushes from deletes,  hope I got em all

=p 

[Whirlingdervish]

well, making the sky all black textured, and removing the sky value from the worldspawn will definitely circumvent the seeing into other areas of the map thru the sky problem.

I've had to do all sorts of things in the past to get around those pesky visual fuckups.

I think it won't hurt performance much, if at all, and since you were planning on a black skybox anyway it won't affect the looks.


The only problem I can think of is with those brushes as textured black solids you'll have to light the map with another brush with nodraw set on it or point/entity lights. some use of the worldspawn entity's _ambient key/value pair can work too.

I usually have the ceiling brushes of my sky, textured with a color that will tint the atmospheric lighting, and I set the light value on them to 150-300 so they illuminate the outdoor areas and give a slight coloring effect to all the outside stuff like the orange on dm1. (but muuuch more subtle than that glaring orange) I generally try to match this lit texture to the prominent light source color in the .env that I've chosen for that map.
(night sky with moon = white/grey or light blue tex, daytime sky with yellow sun = tan or cream colored texture etc..)

With a sky value set, you'll never see that texture in game, but you'll get the slight colored lighting effect that radiates from it, without having to use the sun feature or any entity lights.

I think you could do the same here by making a big thin rectangular brush thats in the air slightly below the actual ceiling.
put the colored texture on it that you want, and set the playerclip and nodraw flags, then set a light value only on the bottom face (that faces the ground).

this brush wont show in the map, but the texture lighting it emits will.

[[BTF] Reflex]

Pretty happy with the lighting actually,  I like the white light - seems more realistic
Hmmm,  havn't looked at it in default q2 though.

   Other than the fixtures,  there is a set of 5 light entities in the middle.
 One near each corner quadrant, and another in the middle that is slightly lower.

 I will try out doing it with a box and see if I like the changes.
But just from using the ceiling in that manner earlier,  I didn't like how it took away from the shadows.
Maybe needed a lower value.

thnx 

[Whirlingdervish]

the lower the value the better.

otherwise it washes out shadows and for people who have high brightness settings, it can get blinding

[peewee_RotA]

Out of curiosity, about how long is your compile time with lighting at this point?

[[BTF] Reflex]

dual core 2.5 with 2 gig ram,  just under a minute with -fast vis
Waiting to try full vis till I figure out detail thing

writing c:\quake2\baseq2\maps\240.prt
Writing c:\quake2\baseq2\maps\240.bsp
    1 seconds elapsed

** Executing...
** Command: C:\WorldCraft\q2tools\qvis3.exe
** Parameters: -fast c:\quake2\baseq2\maps\240

---- vis ----
fastvis = true
reading c:\quake2\baseq2\maps\240.bsp
reading c:\quake2\baseq2\maps\240.prt
 857 portalclusters
3137 numportals
0...1...2...3...4...5...6...7...8...9... (1)
Average clusters visible: 797
Building PHS...
Average clusters hearable: 813
visdatasize:187334  compressed from 191968
writing c:\quake2\baseq2\maps\240.bsp
  1.0 seconds elapsed

** Executing...
** Command: C:\WorldCraft\q2tools\qrad3.exe
** Parameters: c:\quake2\baseq2\maps\240

----- Radiosity ----
reading c:\quake2\baseq2\maps\240.bsp
0...1...2...3...4...5...6...7...8...9... (5)
0...1...2...3...4...5...6...7...8...9... (38)
0...1...2...3...4...5...6...7...8...9... (0)
writing c:\quake2\baseq2\maps\240.bsp
   45 seconds elapsed

[[BTF] Reflex]

Todays work,

Added some color lights by the power shield, and added portcullis <- right word???  lol
Tweaked lighting a bit
found some more bad cuts and removed them.

Don't remember everything I did today....

Anybody notice anything blatent?

 Still working on the detail setting....

[X7]

Every thing looks ok...
'







X7