Evolution versus Intelligent Design

[DKarn]

this guys quit message is different

[22:50] * ex (~fuckyouni@c-24-1-228-14.hsd1.tx.comcast.net) Quit (Quit: To become more powerful than God, you must kill him...and to kill God, all you need is to put a gun to your head and pull the trigger)

[LaMont=GSN=]

Great read, Crazed!  Thanks for posting that article.    

A lot of good discussion.  Great points from Crazed, Pantaloons, QD (the board elder in more ways than one ), Defiant, and TooMuchFun.

My two cents (and likely worth less, but what the hay...)

Like many here I am also a confirmed evolutionist so my bias tends to reflect that.  However I also believe in the existence of a higher power, but I don

[the Crazed]

Muahaha!  I've much to say... but not enough time right now... thanks for the post Lamont!

[Bleach]

Hehehe M^t, i dont think i'd experiment with that either 

I also know a guy who is so convinced of his "faith" he stands outside in a storm "rebuking" it to go away - which of course it does...........eventually

lmfao, that sounds like when i used to use the force to open doors, stand in front of it with your hand stretched out looking like you are concentrating really hard, sooner or later somebody will open it... then i just step through and say "it worked!"

[[BTF]Defiant!]

LaMont's posting about the 2nd law is interesting.  I have four thoughts on the subject.  This doesn't provide anything new; rather, this is more of an analysis of those thoughts.


1) The 2nd Law characterizes how unlikely it would be for life to be created out of randomness.  I don't think there is a known intermediate step between random molecules and the self-replicating proteins needed for life.  Here is where the 2nd law summarizes.. that random systems don't tend toward order. 

In other words, without an intermediate step you have to balance the extreme unlikely probability of a random generation of such a protein vs billions of molecules in the world among billions in the galaxy among billions in the universe among billions of years.  If sufficient intermediate steps were found, the suggest would be profound but still not conclusive.


2) I don't see how the 2nd law characterizes the evolution of species.  If you have a genetic system and an environment which causes selective breeding (as an example) you naturally get diversification.  The diversification which is successful is that which best fits the environment, such as human development of smarter sheep dogs through selective breeding.  In other words, once a system of genetics is in place, I don't think it is an issue of entropy per the 2nd law.  I am NOT saying that everything after the initial creation of the first life is "all figured out" -- I just don't see how the 2nd law relates.  See #3.


3) Most importantly, I don't think I'm qualified to judge if any of this is proper application of the 2nd law.  But I get the impression that what we judge as "order" or "entropy" at this level is subjective. 

There are many examples of systems which do increase in order:
 - The natural laws create the complex structures of a solar system.  Where a chaotic cloud of dust becomes a more ordered system of planets and a star which generates light and heavy elements.
 - Crystals form beautiful, complex structures from less complex ones.   Just super-saturate some water with sugar and hang a string in it.
 - Or if you are panning for gold, you shake up the dirt which creates order just from the random shaking (heavier things tend to sink which creates more order if you are looking for gold).
Related? Not related? I'm not sure.


4) Some people suggest that the 2nd law implies even greater things.  These are a stretch but an interesting thought.  Specifically two things:  (1) The universe isn't infinitely old because if it were (assuming the universe is a closed, finite system) the 2nd law would then imply entropy would have the universe in a state where all useable energy would be gone (i.e. infinitely old = dead).  (2) And, if entropy never decreases overall in a closed system then it is reasonable to think that there was a start and that start would have been a state of lower entropy (i.e. big bang / let there be light).


Def

[M^tster]

Very well put QD.I concur that the person saying the words must have faith in them too.In the bible(some of you are going "here he goes with the bible stuff")it says if two people agree upon something and bring it before God(in prayer) it shall be.Now if you think about that, thats alot of untapped power in the world.Of course what ever you are asking for cannot be evil.And I dunno if God wants us all to pray with our buddies for a million dollars every day either.Hehe.

[M^tster]

As for the big bang theory.I believe that happened.God said let there be light and BOOM!But the theory also states that one day it will all expand then retract back together.But looking out into space now they are wondering why its still speeding up away from the center, which means there is still alot of time till it starts heading back towards itself.Or that we have no idea of physics outside of our own 10 light yr area.And all the "dark matter" out in the Universe(which makes up 90% of it) is still an unknown for science.The fact that the world is getting worse and that more "dark matter" is being found out in the Universe, I dont think that its not related.I think that the more evil this world creates the more "dark matter" will show up.Just a theory I have.No proof on that one.

[LaMont=GSN=]

Good points, Defiant!

[pantaloons]

As to whether this a valid application of the second law, that's certainly a good question.

[the Crazed]

What I understand that to mean, is there is no 100% efficient process for converting heat into work.  The rest - when we talk about increasing disorder, are all extrapolations from this basic premise.  So it's OK to have reactions that take something in a disordered state, and make it more orderly - but whatever the process is, we can be sure some heat was lost in the process that can't be reclaimed.

And this heat increases the overall disorder of the entire system.

Ordered systems can persist if they increase the disorder in the environment.  Life is basically using the trend toward disorder. 

C  + O2 <----> CO2 + heat

Respiration is the way life burns energy.  It uses a series of intermediate steps of this reaction to do useful work - a slow burn.  This reaction tends to go to the right under normal conditions because heat is more disordered than the solid carbon (the two gases are basically the same entropy so they don't effect the direction of the reaction).

Life works with equilibrium gradients.  All systems tend towards equilibrium and life harnesses this tendancy to do work.  The second law of thermodynamcis doesn't really apply in the philosophical sense we're discussing (saying that the universe is getting increasingly disordered doesn't negate the possibility of evolution whatsoever).  It applies in the sense of how a reaction is going to occur.  If the reaction will result in net disorder, then that's what will occur.  Our solar system is far, far from equilibrium, and the Earth is an open system constantly being fed energy from the sun.

You could say that... because reactions go in the direction of increasing entropy, then therefore the above reaction should go ALL THE WAY to the right completely.  But it won't, it reaches an equilibrium where there's a certain percentage of each part, and if you add anything in, everything will shift and restabilize again.  You'll always have components (those on the left side of the reaction) which are more ordered than they COULD be.  This does not negate the second law of thermodynamics.  In fact... if this reaction takes place in an open system (like the Earth) and you increase the heat, it will force the reaction to the LEFT - forming higher quality energy using the most useless form, heat.

Shit... I'm not really getting my point across well...  More babbling... I'll try to focus on what I'm really trying to say and return to this

[Bleach]

holy shit.. i swear ive learned more on these forums (this thread esp) than i ever did in school 

[The Dreaming Dragon]

holy shit.. i swear ive learned more on these forums (this thread esp) than i ever did in school

[Bleach]

damn tmf, you find some really wierd shit

[the Crazed]

Hahaha... thanks for that stuff TMF... I've never heard of that before but it's an interesting way of combatting intelligent design..

Also... sorry for my babbling above... I really need to take a look at my physics books again before I can say anything really factual.  I think the concepts are correct, but not the explanations.

[DeathInc KEA]

Seriously...I really shouldn't get involved in this thread because the topic of religion gets me burning....but I just can't resist...and I'm pretty sure my views on this will offend some....If thats you, stop reading this post now.

Face it! The whole bible was written by primitive minds even more primitive than our current primitive minds. The only reason it is even still in use, is because of it's ability to be used to control the masses with fear. The same way our govenment is using "Terrorist" tactics to scare us into voteing away our constitutional rights. Yes, it does contain some good points on how to live a productive and happy life, but as far as explaining the origans of the human race, it is full of nothing more than pure speculation. Bedtime stories to tell your children when they ask you a question that you don't have the answer to. Do you honestly think that back in the days of the old testiment that people lived for over 500 years? When with all our modern medicine and technology, we can barely reach 100. And lets face it. Most people refuse to think for themselves. They want to be told what to wear, what to eat, how to act, what to believe, etc. They are too lazy or afraid to actually open their eyes and look at the universe around them. It is alot easier to just say "The Bible says its so, so it must be true." and then never give it a second thought. WE ARE LAZY!!!! And that is besides the fact that this whole issue is being pushed by a complete idiot that is being paid very well by religious lobbies to make it happen.

The prospect of ID being taught in public schools along with evolution is absurd! And even if you actually believe that the entire human race originated from the creation of an all powerful God, by the "Seeding" of Adam & Eve, then why is it so hard to believe that maybe that God created us THROUGH evolution? If you want your kids to grow up believeing in myths, send them to a religious school or home school them. But wait...I almost forgot.....WE ARE LAZY!!! We dont have the time or paticence to actually teach our children our own beliefs ourselves. Lets force the school system to do it for us so that we dont have to actually come up with proper proof that children require of our answers to their questions. Besides, "THE GAME IS ON!"..."DONT BOTHER ME"..."DIDN'T THEY TEACH YOU ABOUT THAT IN SCHOOL?"..."They didn't...mmmm...got to do something about that. I'm calling my preacher."....."Now what was the Score Again?"

O...and lets also not forget that it is religious beliefs that cause all wars. Christians say that life is sacred and that it is a mortal sin to kill another living thing.....but wait.....only if that living thing has the same belief structure as yours. If they disagree, lets start a war.....because its perfectly ok to kill Sinners....RIGHT.....and if you dont have the same religious beliefs then your a sinner. "Burn the Witch!".... Hypocritical oppression at its best. But wait, whats that, there are more and more people that are actually figureing out how to think for themselves.....O Shit, there goes the neighborhood! Quick! We had better start brainwashing all the sinners children now or were going to loose control in another 30-40 years. Without them, how are we going to kill all the evil sinners in the world who don't believe in the same religious views as we do? And nevermind the fact that those "Sinners" just happen to be sitting on some of the worlds richest oil deposits.

Granted, there are some truely "Good" Christians in the world that actually arn't hypocrites. They sacrifice their lives to helping others and promoteing "Good Will to Others" and they truly live true to the teachings of the Bible. They way it was meant. But those are not the same people who are in charge of the major religious institutions which carry all the power. And there are people out there that do those things out of instinct, without any religious teachings, because they truly believe in helping the world become a better place....which to me is what life is all about. But forceing teachers in "Public Schools" to teach a completly conflicting and unscienctific belief as a known fact without a shread of proof with the exception of a book of mythical stories isn't the way to move this society forward. We might as well outlaw electricity and move back into the "Dark Ages".