Evolution versus Intelligent Design

[Admin]

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[[BTF]Defiant!]

Some Christian faiths take the Bible literally.  I don't know how this fits with this http://www.freethoughtdebater.com/tenbiblecontradictions.htm
Again, I do think seeking spirituality is very important and the pursuit is not in conflict with the objective pusuit of truth (science).

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At the risk of this sounding like a copout, forget the "on the first day" stuff. There was no such thing as a "day", before the heavens, earth, and sun existed. Context of time in this regard, I think is irrelavent. Let's focus more on life creation.

Sounds fair enough to me.

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There's no doubt that evolution is a fact, but to what extent ? Why is there no known documentation of it ? Did man just miraculacly become intelligent enough to start documenting life at some point and evolution for us stop there? Did some humanoids develope at a faster rate than others ?

I don't understand what you mean about documentation for evolution.

I would think evolution of human intelligence would be easy to accept relative to thoughts about the origin of life.  I mean early humans would be more likely to survive and reproduce given better ability to aim weapons, hunt in groups, etc..   And we are smart, but don't forget we aren't that much different from chimpanzees.. they use tools, have emotions, problem solve, hurt unfaithful lovers, etc..

Science has an unending list of unanswered questions.  Some of them will statisfy, but they probably won't help you guide your life.

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In summary, I suppose the theory that life started from nothing, with or without ID is possible. Just let me know when it's duplicated, then you'll have my full attention.

Yup, never been done.

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Just to muck things up a little, what is the consequence of believing a false? Is that the same as not believing a true ?

Two parts to this, one is for the individual and the other is for the socieity.  When believing is forced or limited, when it can't be discussed, then we are all limited.  I don't know of a mechanism other than science and free-open speech which enables the objective search for truth.

Def

[The Dreaming Dragon]

I've always pecieved Godhood as a perspective and viewpoint,a metaphor the monkeys used to comfort each other in the dark.Ever think of WHY God created everything? Not to be "worshipped":no amoebas building churches,no trilobites persecuting other trilobites for waving their antenna incorrectly during Vespers.Why go through all the bother?The answer,if there is one, might be to learn about itself through the creating.

I really can't imagine we appear real to the Creator,and as an abstraction from Its mind,we can expect the whole gamut of good and bad experiences to be flung at us haphazardly.Look at it this way:Bugs Bunny gives Elmer Fudd an Exploding Cigar.He accepts it and readies himself to enjoy it,and is rewarded with an explosion and blackened face and torn clothes.We,the Beings outside of the Space-Time continuum Laugh At Him.We can only connect with him vaguely,being only an animated image given a semblence of life,and we forget the pain and humiliation he feels at the moment is VERY real to HIM.Then again,if you insist on hunting down obviously sentient beings like Talking Rabbits,one must expect some Cosmic Justice to fall upon you.Or so we would hope,and we know this is seldom the case.And so we must appear to our Creator: an interesting Construct to fiddle with while waiting for Dinner to be delivered.And all this Creator gets out of this is Seeing What Happens Next.And does a being that can Create universes need more?

And speaking of more....here is an amusing answer to Intelligent Design: the Cult of the Flying Spagetti Monster!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flying_Spaghetti_Monster

[the Crazed]

Wow, glad for the responses   I appreciate the mellow tones 

Too much to talk about to really respond to everything said, so I'll make some personal observations (opinions of course).

I think God is outside of time, so therefore "waiting" for man to be created doesn't really make any sense (from His perspective) - it does to us because we're restricted by time.

Hahahahaha... of course that gets into a whole world of crazy stuff like if God knows the future what about free will?  I don't think God knowing what you're going to do in any way restricts your decision to do it   But there's a lot more to that....

Ummm, and to clarify I do believe in the Bible.  It'll take a moment to explain how though....  I hope someone reads this to make it worth it - but I suppose it's just nice to explain for its own sake as well 

There are a few assumptions I make that people will disagree with, but form the basis of my belief:
1.  Mankind is special
2.  God created mankind in His image (image meaning we have the ability to manifest God's virtues fully - such as love, honesty, generosity, mercy, patience, etc - whereas an animal cannot... there's more to this as well if someone wants an explanation about how I justify this, but too long here)
3.  God is actively instructing mankind about Himself and these virtues through Messengers (Abraham, Krishna, Moses, Zoroaster, Buddha, Jesus Christ, Mohammad... Baha'u'llah's MINE )


I believe in progressive revelation whereby God reveals Himself to mankind as our capacity develops to understand Him.  To do so He sends Messengers that give us laws and ordinances that allow us to further our development.  Some of them are spiritual laws, and others are social. 

For example, the Jews were sent Moses.  He told them not eat pork (social law) because at the time they were not able to cook it properly and many died from diseases related to it.  He also said an eye for an eye (spiritual).  It sounds bad in the context of Jesus' message, but at the time you can imagine that people were vindictive and if someone blinded you in the eye you in turn tried to kill him or do some other horrible thing out of proportion to the crime (otherwise why would God bother to make that a law?).  People were not at the level spiritually to accept Jesus' admonition to "turn the other cheek".  If they were, God would have revealed that law to them then.  And by the time of Jesus people's methods of cooking were more sanitary and pork was safe to eat.

There are more examples but I'd just like to explain my belief for the moment...

So, regarding the Bible...  if we take science to be correct in it's developing explanation of how the natural world functions, how can God explain to us our origins in the time of Jesus or Moses?  There wasn't even the vocabulary to properly describe or explain it, and there definitely weren't people to understand it.  I don't believe that the Bible was designed by God to teach us anything about science or the natural world.  It was designed to give us spiritual insights and understandings - and was meant for those whose understanding of the spiritual and natural world was limited.  If the public is ignorant now it was infinitely more so then

So... I believe the Bible but I take into account what I've learned about the world to interpret and understand it.  I don't think it's meant to be taken literally.  God made Eve from Adam's rib?  It just sounds so.... ridiculous... in light of all the amazing things we understand nowadays.  It would be incredible if scientists discovered that men ejaculated tiny ribs into women but that just doesn't happen (as far as we know )  And yet, believing in the Bible, there's a reason that's in there, some elusive metaphor that we can ponder and gain some new insight about our creation.  I haven't read Genesis so I don't know how one might put it together - I have my own holy books I'm supposed to be reading.

Haven't many understandings of the Bible been disproven?  It's the brain not the heart that contains the mind.  The Sun is at the center of the solar system.  These facts force reinterpretations of the Bible. 

Did Jesus literally give sight to the blind?  Or did he give spiritual sight to wicked men?  Which one is more worthy of respect?  Which one is more worthy of God?  We've been taught to interpret it in the former sense because our fathers were taught that way and their fathers before them.  Anyone played telephone before?  How about for two thousand years?  I absolutely believe that miracles are possible, but which is the real miracle?

Ummm... well... I guess that's my point.  I know we all feel strongly about this and I don't mean to offend anyone.  It's all based on how I interpret my own religion.  Sorry for rambling so much

-Crazed

[the Crazed]

Damn... gonna ramble a little more.

Just wanted to add something about evolution.

[the Crazed]

anyone inebriated on information yet?

 

[[BTF]adam]

It was a damn intresting read ill give it that! there are alot of things i agree with, but yes its a sensitive subject.. which is why all our r.e teachers tread damn carefully round religions cus one person (a satanist) stabbed a teacher with a compass for saying *i dont understand satanism*

[the Crazed]

hehehe... i don't understand it either... who wants to be satan's bitch for eternity?

Anyhow, thank you Adam, that's about as nice a comment as I could expect 

[pantaloons]

Did Jesus literally give sight to the blind?

[pantaloons]

This is one of my favorite quotes...

[QuakeDuke]

At the risk of becoming totally innudated immersed stuck like Ber Rabbit to Uncle Remus' tar baby ostracized and other things too numerous to mention mainly because it's too early in the morning for my synapes to be correctly firing in the order they should be which they hardly ever do anyway but I'm trying to rival what's his name I forget it but he's the one who always did the huge postings and paragraphs without any punctuation at all because of what I do all I have to say in reply to pant's post which I don't think is offensive at all but I can understand why some who respond out of a reflexive knee jerk emotion instead of looking at what is being said is .........ssssssswwwwooooosssshhhh... .(everyone takes a deep breath) 

Televangelists and John Edward have a lot in common, I think.

Amen.

QD

[QuakeDuke]

PS.

How come there's not a none of the above choice for the question? My personal opinion (for what it's worth which isn't much I know) is both terms "Evolution" and "Intelligent Design" as used by most have become euphemisms (short definition    follows) and in most cases serve only to divide and draw lines where, in reality, there are no lines and they have been co-opted to mean "MY side is the ONLY right opinion" Gah! Save me from the mentality of those who have become so set in their ways they can't - won't learn anything....

Sorry. I don't mean to rant (the moderator, sotto voice says: "sssuuuurrreee"), it's just frustrating to me when people become so closed minded they would say in the middle of a two day downpouring of rain "Geeze, it sure is hot and dry - I wish this drought would come to an end"

A euphemism is an expression intended by the speaker to be less offensive, disturbing, or troubling to the listener than the word or phrase it replaces.

When a phrase is used as a euphemism, it often becomes a metaphor whose literal meaning is dropped. Euphemisms are often used to hide unpleasant or disturbing ideas, even when the literal term for them is not necessarily offensive. This type of euphemism is used in public relations and politics, where it is sometimes called doublespeak (yay '60s).

There are also superstitious euphemisms, based (consciously or unconsciously) on the idea that words have the power to bring bad or good fortune (positive / negative confession doctrines fall into this area - but that's a topic for a different disccussion) for example, not speaking the word "cancer"; and religious euphemisms, based on the idea that some words are sacred, or that some words are spiritually imperiling or taboo.

More excellent reading on euphemisms which will probably have most saying "gee, that's interesting - I didn't know that!" can be found at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Euphemism

QD

[Laurelin]

The Sun is at the center of the solar system

Does the bible say the opposite?  ???

[pantaloons]

More excellent reading on euphemisms which will probably have most saying "gee, that's interesting - I didn't know that!" can be found at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Euphemism

Heheh, one of my favorite movies, Repo Man http://online.tvguide.com/Movies/database/ShowMovie.asp?MI=17860, contains a lot of swearing.

[Bleach]

To quote mal 2:

KNOW YE THIS O MAN OF FAITH!

I - There is no Goddess but Goddess and She is Your Goddess. There is no Erisian Movement but The Erisian Movement and it is The Erisian Movement. And every Golden Apple Corps is the beloved home of a Golden Worm.

II - A Discordian Shall Always use the Official Discordian Document Numbering System.

III - A Discordian is Required during his early Illumination to Go Off Alone & Partake Joyously of a Hot Dog on a Friday; this Devotive Ceremony to Remonstrate against the popular Paganisms of the Day: of Catholic Christendom (no meat on Friday), of Judaism (no meat of Pork), of Hindic Peoples (no meat of Beef), of Buddhists (no meat of animal), and of Discordians (no Hot Dog Buns).

IV - A Discordian shall Partake of No Hot Dog Buns, for Such was the Solace of Our Goddess when She was Confronted with The Original Snub.

V - A Discordian is Prohibited of Believing what he reads.

IT IS SO WRITTEN! SO BE IT. HAIL DISCORDIA! PROSECUTORS WILL BE TRANSGRESSICUTED.

and as for the ID versus Science... i cant bring myself to care enough, since im out of school  , but i definatly agree with whoever it was crazed quoted in saying that teaching both would be worse than teaching something false *cough*id*cough*

hehehe... i don't understand it either... who wants to be satan's bitch for eternity?

im not going to lecture or correct anything on satanism as everbody seems to hate it so much, but i lived with 2 satanists for several years, and they remind me more of catholics than christians do... and adam, if that dumbass stabbed someone for saying they dont understand satanism, he sounds like a trendy little cocksucker who has no fucking idea either way