Author Topic: Current Politics & History Only Thread  (Read 160625 times)

Offline |iR|Focalor

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Re: Current Politics & History Only Thread
« Reply #870 on: February 11, 2020, 04:13:01 AM »
Of course, not all wealth is achieved via growth. Some sinister forms are achieved via rent-seeking, which merely siphon wealth.

I don't know exactly what you had in mind by "rent-seeking"... but I imagine it would look something like the Roswell/Sandy Springs area of Atlanta where they are gentrifying the LIVING IMMORTAL FUCK out of the area (much like the SoDoSoPa episodes of South Park), cramming all these expensive assed multi-story loft-style apartments in buildings that have shitty kitschy indy eateries on the ground level with menus of oddball non-traditional weirdness similar to shit like Zoe's Kitchen (if you're familiar). The area was ALREADY busy and cluttered back in 2006. By 2016, it had become an obscene clusterfuck of 24hr gridlock. And how the fuck they fill all those overpriced dwellings with renters, I'll never know. Why the fuck do people spend 2 or 3 grand a month renting a place instead of buying a house and accruing equity? Who the fuck are these hordes of people making that much money to afford to throw it away like it's nothing? :ohlord:

....2020 Tax Brackets....

Not gonna quote the whole thing, but that's something they should consider addressing. I don't understand why it's "fair" that single people have to essentially pay 25%-ish more taxes than married people with children. Yeah they have to pay to raise those expensive little fuckers. But single people chose NOT to take on the burden, so why should they pay for schooling more than people who have the kids that use the schools? Married people have two incomes, and it's easier to obtain a mortgage you can afford with 2 salaries.  If you got kids, YOU pay for them. That's like if I buy a dog and you hate dogs and don't have one, you have to pay for 65% of the portion of fence that borders your property, because... dog owners made the rules. That's some shit that's clearly designed by people with families who didn't care if they had to fuck over the single people because they aren't one of them and probably don't know any of them.

I don't want to say this too flippantly, but my first thought is to say, "so fucking what". The important question to me is, "Will this make our society better, and will this help the greatest number of people?" The part of yours I quoted sounds like an appeal to tradition argument - this is who we are, and how we've always been, so even if this would objectively improve the situation, and people's lives in the process, it's more important to preserve this image we have of ourselves (which is nothing remotely close to a consensus, ftr).

To me, it's a question of "What is the innate philosophy that defines our country and our culture?" And it's odd you mention looking at things "objectively" because "Objectivism" and the writings of Ayn Rand define what the true American philosophy is more than anything else you'll ever find. Our nations slogan is basically "Land of the FREE, home of the brave." What we all want is freedom and liberty, and a system that taxes its people unfairly hinders freedom and liberty... and the shit too many of these Democrats have been stammering about during speeches and debates has sounded FAR too much like Communist philosophy. And there's just no fucking way at all that I'm ever going to be able to see the objective benefits of Communist philosophy in action. That said... I do realize that most of them saying it probably don't believe a fucking word they are saying and have no intention on following through with it. That's not the problem though. The problem is that they are helping to legitimize those philosophies as viable options.
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Offline quadz

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Re: Current Politics & History Only Thread
« Reply #871 on: February 11, 2020, 09:32:21 AM »
I don't know exactly what you had in mind by "rent-seeking"...

Just to clarify -
  • Rent seeking is an economic concept occurring when an entity seeks to gain wealth without reciprocal contribution of productivity.
  • The term 'rent' in rent seeking is based on an "economic rent" which was defined by economist Adam Smith to mean payments made in excess of resource costs.
  [ https://www.investopedia.com/terms/r/rentseeking.asp ]


A modern example: As cellular mobile service expanded to handle the data requirements of Internet capable smart phones (web browsing, streaming youtube videos, etc.) the carriers still had plans charging upwards of 10 or 20 cents to send or receive a single text message. At that point they were charging customers literally millions of times more then it really cost their network to send the message.
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Offline haunted

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Re: Current Politics & History Only Thread
« Reply #872 on: February 11, 2020, 10:11:45 AM »
Jesus, I read my posts and get a headache from the typos and rambling. I'll try to be more concise and more to the point. Just can't really organize my thoughts well on a phone.  I am in full agreement with quadz and focalor, well said to both of you.

As for the child tax credits, I agree halfway having 2 kids myself. You're right in many cases, actually probably most in this day and age focalor. The argument FOR people like me would be under the presumption that my 2 kids are going to contribute to society in a beneficial way eventually. But I'm well aware that not everyone is like me not that my family's too special or anything, but I envision my kids actually picking up a trade, not majoring in liberal bullshit, and truly filling a professional void in our country that is increasingly getting worse. So I'm glad I'll be getting it this year for MYSELF, coming from a single income family. But there's no actual way of standardizing/regulating people that raise leeches off the government so really I DO agree with you,  not just halfway. But, that's my view for my own situation.

It's pretty funny that ya got a union worker that'll vote against my livelihood, foc who is very middle-road whom in the past has been more critical about the Republican party than anyone(he just said he's 100% with Republicans, about), and quadz who has voted exclusively Democrat from 1992-2016 are all mostly against the left. There's a reason for it, and i'd try to keep an open mind punk. This forum with a handful of people talking is the most refreshing and thoughtful political discussion in my life, lmao. I have loads of leftist friends who are intelligent and nice people but completely caught up in the anti-trump hysteria and/or "democratic socialism", wealth redistribution, and insert radical left views that play to people's emotions, etc. For you guys in California that's probably the norm.

Yeah those Zoe's kitchens are popping up everywhere. They're OK, but expensive/overrated. At least it's not garbage for your body but BOY are they popular and the hip thing.  Especially with women.

Another misconception about wealth distribution is that it's going to magically solve all of our issues. I recall an article recently stating we'd have to tax the top 2% 103% to clear our debt by 2025, assuming that they're going to continue the same production and work at all for that matter, and assuming that the government won't waste the funds on something else.
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Offline haunted

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Offline Sgt. Dick

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Re: Current Politics & History Only Thread
« Reply #874 on: February 11, 2020, 05:00:35 PM »
 :dohdohdoh: :nosign:
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Offline |iR|Focalor

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Re: Current Politics & History Only Thread
« Reply #875 on: February 12, 2020, 12:27:11 AM »
Yeah, well I'll humbly admit that my criticism of W Bush in the past wasn't completely so well informed. Most of it centered on the fact that we were getting heavily involved in things in Iraq and Afghanistan for no immediately clear beneficial reason. And even to this day, it appears as though the most likely reason we did get involved over there was because we wanted to slowly change the political climate of the region to modernize it for the future. Or... some shit.

Jane Goodall is qualified to talk to me about economics. Sure. And I'm just as qualified to disagree with what she says. Now when we start talking about monkeys and jungles, I'll shut the fuck up and trust that her comments are coming from a place of learned experience. At no point did they ever explicitly show that Jane Goodall said anything about wealth inequality. She mentioned population growth and how THAT is the common denominator with all the other problems of the world. If I were her, I would be fucking pissed that they used my identity to falsely sponsor their leftist philosophy. In fact one commenter said the same thing.

Quote
Dean Frenkel
Feb 08, 2020

This article totally misrepresents Jane Goodall who is actually saying the opposite.

I mean... I don't think anyone would disagree that Jane Goodall is the perfect definition of a hippy treehugging liberal. But she's also well educated and very intelligent. Too intelligent to even hint that she'd entertain an idea so stupid.
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Offline haunted

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Re: Current Politics & History Only Thread
« Reply #876 on: February 13, 2020, 07:03:38 PM »
I keep thinking more and more that trump will win 2020 in a historic landslide, yet I also keep seeing more articles stating "the blue wave is coming!!!". I know a lot of people that truly believe it too. It's really strange for me thinking the complete opposite.

With Yang dropping out that leaves gabbard as the most sane candidate by a decent margin.. And she hasn't gained much ground. I'd probably consider voting for her. I've voted for Gary Johnson before who I didn't even like so wasting my vote is right up my alley. Although I DID tell myself I didn't want to do that crap anymore.
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Offline |iR|Focalor

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Re: Current Politics & History Only Thread
« Reply #877 on: February 14, 2020, 02:34:28 AM »
I keep thinking more and more that trump will win 2020 in a historic landslide,...

How do you arrive at that impression? Is it from what you've seen on Facebook? Because I hear the same thing from my mother when we get to talking about politics, and she volunteered the info that it's "...from what people have been saying on Facebook..." I'd caution someone not to use that as a true measurement. The things you see on Facebook are marketed and tailored to you based on data they've collected from you and your friends. It makes sense that the things your friends believe, you probably do too. But that quality is further enhanced by marketing data and algorithms and blah blah blah - the shit going on behind the screen. Kinda like how netflix makes recommendations based on the shit you've watched.

It depends on what corner of the internet you look at. On facebook things might seem heavily in favor of Trump. But on the marketing survey site I hit up everyday to earn free gift cards... which is populated by a lot of shut-ins, disabled, elderly, cheapo something-for-nothing motherfuckers (like me), which is maybe a demographic a little more predisposed to vote democrat, the daily poll comments are inundated with daily anti-Trump whinging. I'm in the severe minority of pro-Trump voices there... and it doesn't help that the other pro-Trump voices happen to be seemingly very stupid people with highly feeble arguing skills. ::)
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Offline haunted

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Re: Current Politics & History Only Thread
« Reply #878 on: February 14, 2020, 04:20:48 PM »
On Facebook it's ABSURDLY against trump. EVERYONE on social media thinks the democrats will take control of everything in 2020. Yeah, the smaller circle that your mom's a part of on social media may be trumpers but I see the exact opposite drastically. And there's tons of media sources supporting that view. My opinion is that they're all wrong and being misled.
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Offline Punk_FAS

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Re: Current Politics & History Only Thread
« Reply #879 on: February 15, 2020, 09:24:53 AM »
It's really strange for me thinking the complete opposite.

I've had a similar thought before, how I can't comprehend how those who support Trump don't see the same person that I see in him. It'd be interesting to be able to see Trump from a devoted Trump supporter's eyes for a moment in hopes to understand what the differences are between how they see him and how I do. I'm not staunchly anti-Republican policies in any way (I lean left a good bit, but I think the left gets a lot of things wrong), but I am staunchly anti-Trump.

Those who support him: Do you guys actually trust him? Do you feel he's actually fit for the office? Do you believe he's actually sufficiently knowledgeable on the relevant topics he would need to be to do his job effectively? What would be your harshest criticism of him?
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Offline quadz

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Re: Current Politics & History Only Thread
« Reply #880 on: February 15, 2020, 12:31:19 PM »
I've had a similar thought before, how I can't comprehend how those who support Trump don't see the same person that I see in him.

Someone observed during the last election cycle that Trump's critics take him literally, but not seriously; while Trump's supporters take him seriously, but not literally.

I think it's important to note that one can dislike Trump as a person, while finding him to be (surprisingly?) effective in office.

For example, I don't find much to argue with in this sort of deconstruction of Trump's persona:

Quote from: Sam Harris (said in a 2017 podcast to guest David Brooks)
[Trump] strikes me as a distillation of everything that is wrong with the American character. This could be, in large measure, a caricature, but he has brought the caricature to life. If you take our materialism, and our ignorance about the rest of the world, and our satisfaction in that ignorance, our overconfidence, our pretension to greatness, even when we're actually being merely petty, our vanity, our sexism, boorishness, narcissism . . . a kind of childishness that doesn't have the virtues of childhood — it's a kind of malignant childhood that is just all boastfulness and ME-ME-ME-ME-ME, without any of the curiosity or sympathy that you meet in actual children — he is the living embodiment of a kind of American Grotesque. It's almost like he's a golem that has been conjured by the worst things that have ever been said about us as a country. If he can't grope it or put gold letters on it, it doesn't exist [to him].

If I had a quibble with the above, it might be that it fails to acknowledge Trump's dickish sense of humor. Somehow, even while I generally agree with the above, I can still find myself laughing out loud at some of his absurd shitposting on Twitter.


Those who support him: Do you guys actually trust him? Do you feel he's actually fit for the office? Do you believe he's actually sufficiently knowledgeable on the relevant topics he would need to be to do his job effectively? What would be your harshest criticism of him?

One thing I've learned in the Trump Era is that the office of President is suited to a different skill set than I would have previously thought.

I used to think the most effective President would be someone who's super smart, science-minded, informed on details and nuance of policy foreign and domestic; etc.

That still sounds great in theory. I'm sure I would like Trump more if he were such a person.

But, it's looking instead like the crucial factor is someone with Persuasion skills, by a huge margin.

Here's a brief overview of the type of persuasion I mean: https://www.scottadamssays.com/2016/07/18/how-persuaders-see-the-world/


As to whether Trump has been effective, I found the following short article interesting on the topic of foreign policy:

https://www.nationalreview.com/2020/02/donald-trump-unorthodoxy-becoming-orthodox/


As for criticism, I should probably start a list. But here's one thing:

The current economic boom appears to have been achieved in significant part via deficit spending - basically financed on credit. And I presume that's going to come back around and bite us.

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Offline Punk_FAS

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Re: Current Politics & History Only Thread
« Reply #881 on: February 15, 2020, 01:53:00 PM »
What about trust? Does that even matter?

I honestly believe Trump would be diagnosed as having narcissistic personalty disorder if a qualified psychologist ever got to sit down with him and go through all the criteria, line by line, with him. I feel that alone should disqualify someone from holding such a position of power.

What are you feelings about Trump's relationship with Putin? Do you trust Putin? Do you think when he has meetings with the president he has totally honest intentions? Do you think Trump cannot be easily manipulated by flattery, particularly with someone he looks up to like Putin? Do you have confidence that ex-KGB officer Putin isn't going to do his best to get Trump to reveal sensitive information, or make hush hush agreements with Trump in those meetings that don't have documentation? Do you have confidence that Trump is intelligent enough to recognize, and resist, what Putin may try to do? Didn't Trump already reveal what some considered sensitive (potentially classified) information when he posted a satellite capture of one of Iran's facilities on Twitter?

I don't understand why anyone would think Trump was qualified. He doesn't like to read, I've read reports of how he seems disinterested and bored during military briefings and other briefings of intelligence. He apparently gets a significant percentage of his worldly knowledge from Fox News and other television stations/programs. From what pool of knowledge is Trump pulling from to make the important decisions he's been charged with making?

Have you guys seen this video? Do you think Trump is just lying to get people to have confidence in him? I'm inclined to believe that he actually believes he's this knowledgeable about this stuff.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5GqJna9hpTE
« Last Edit: February 15, 2020, 02:10:01 PM by Punk_FAS »
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Offline quadz

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Re: Current Politics & History Only Thread
« Reply #882 on: February 15, 2020, 03:16:42 PM »
What about trust? Does that even matter?

Hm. Compared to what, I wonder? For example, when I held my nose and voted for Hillary in 2016, I "trusted" her as being someone who would perpetuate the business-as-usual cronyism and back-room graft we've come to expect from the Clintons.

It's almost as if the shock of Trump's election has rebooted his critics' brains to the point they've forgotten how much we used to loathe politicians in general, before Trump arrived on the scene.


I honestly believe Trump would be diagnosed as having narcissistic personalty disorder if a qualified psychologist ever got to sit down with him and go through all the criteria, line by line, with him. I feel that alone should disqualify someone from holding such a position of power.

Presumably such a narcissist would find the idea of being remembered as an ineffective President completely intolerable. So who knows: it might be working in our favor, if narcissism is pushing Trump to excel, in his way.


What are you feelings about Trump's relationship with Putin? Do you trust Putin? Do you think when he has meetings with the president he has totally honest intentions? Do you think Trump cannot be easily manipulated by flattery, particularly with someone he looks up to like Putin? Do you have confidence that ex-KGB officer Putin isn't going to do his best to get Trump to reveal sensitive information, or make hush hush agreements with Trump in those meetings that don't have documentation? Do you have confidence that Trump is intelligent enough to recognize, and resist, what Putin may try to do? Didn't Trump already reveal what some considered sensitive (potentially classified) information when he posted a satellite capture of one of Iran's facilities on Twitter?

I don't understand why anyone would think Trump was qualified. He doesn't like to read, I've read reports of how he seems disinterested and bored during military briefings and other briefings of intelligence. He apparently gets a significant percentage of his worldly knowledge from Fox News and other television stations/programs. From what pool of knowledge is Trump pulling from to make the important decisions he's been charged with making?

I'm reminded of a recent post on Twitter:

Quote from: Scott Adams (@ScottAdamsSays) on Twitter
Thanks to the miracle of cognitive dissonance[1], Democrats can only explain what they see in politics by believing @realDonaldTrump has been "lucky" for several decades in a row, operating on "impulsiveness" alone, while his supporters are hypnotized cult members.

Compare to the alternative explanation of what we see, that he has unique skills and he is delivering (or trying hard to deliver) what he promised his voters.

One of those two explanations of reality is batshit crazy. Hint: It's the one that did not predict where we would be today.




Have you guys seen this video? Do you think Trump is just lying to get people to have confidence in him? I'm inclined to believe that he actually believes he's this knowledgeable about this stuff.

Haha, cracked up at, "I know more about golf than OBAMA KNOWS."

I don't know what Trump really believes, but we do know that hyperbole and exaggeration are tools and tactics he engages in almost constantly.

(Again, I'd estimate this would be a case where his supporters would take him, "seriously, but not literally.")

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"He knew all the tricks, dramatic irony, metaphor, bathos, puns, parody, litotes and... satire. He was vicious."

Offline haunted

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Re: Current Politics & History Only Thread
« Reply #883 on: February 15, 2020, 04:43:39 PM »
I don't think there's any die hard trump supporters here, but there's no denying there is something refreshing about him being in office. It has everything to do with how much we loathe politicians. If you were to talk to an average joe moderate right leaner he'd probably say "Hollywood elites, soros, the koch brothers, and the democrat party all hate his guts so he must be doing something right". You can criticize this opinion as being misinformed and rightfully so, but there IS some basis behind it. What happens though is that the left calls people like this racist nazi white supremacists and/or enablers... when they get labeled as such, how do you think they're going to vote in the next election?
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Offline Punk_FAS

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Re: Current Politics & History Only Thread
« Reply #884 on: February 15, 2020, 05:27:57 PM »
Presumably such a narcissist would find the idea of being remembered as an ineffective President completely intolerable.

A narcissist would talk about how unfairly they were treated, and how everyone else failed them instead of the other way around - narcissists don't accept their own personal faults (covfefe, anyone?). They don't care what other people think, other than people they view as having a level of admiration and/or power equal or greater to their own (like Putin, Kim Jong-un, etc.).

Democrats can only explain what they see in politics by believing @realDonaldTrump has been "lucky" for several decades in a row, operating on "impulsiveness" alone, while his supporters are hypnotized cult members.

What does this mean? Lucky in what way? I do believe a significant number of his supporters (perhaps a majority) are somewhat hypnotized. Regarding the video: Do you think he simply makes the same joke over and over again? Do you think he's actually the type that defers to actual experts in their respective fields? What his supporters believe is not what's important compared to what he actually believes. Even that seems to fluctuate depending on whichever direction the fair political winds happen to be flowing on any given day.
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Thnx dude, got it.  ;)

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