Author Topic: What does this mean to the economy?  (Read 37785 times)

Offline DWxchzrles

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Re: What does this mean to the economy?
« Reply #60 on: October 03, 2008, 04:53:25 PM »
Bailout type

Financial bailout package approved this week up to or more than $700 billion

Bear Stearns financing $29 billion
 
Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac nationalization $200 billion
 
AIG loan and nationalization $85 billion

Federal Housing Administration housing rescue bill $300 billion

Mortgage community grants $4 billion

JPMorgan Chase repayments $87 billion

Loans to banks via Fed's Term Auction Facility $200 billion+

Loans from Depression-era Exchange Stabilization Fund $50 billion

Purchases of mortgage securities by Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac $144 billion
 
POSSIBLE TOTAL $1.8 trillion+ NUMBER OF HOUSEHOLDS PER U.S. CENSUS

105,480,101 POSSIBLE COST PER HOUSEHOLD $17,064+
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Offline QwazyWabbit

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Re: What does this mean to the economy?
« Reply #61 on: October 03, 2008, 08:04:32 PM »
If Americans can't see the real problem is the system and the rules the Senators and Representatives have designed for themselves to keep themselves in office and to make it as hard as possible for new candidates to be elected and for real reforms to be implemented then we shall continue to get the government we deserve.

On a related note, I read an interesting hypothesis with regard to gerrymandering the other day.

I had previously regarded gerrymandering ("To divide (a geographic area) into voting districts so as to give unfair advantage to one party in elections") as more or less just an annoying collusion between members of opposing parties to help keep themselves being re-elected, by ensuring a majority of partisan constituents in their respective districts.

However, the hypothesis linked gerrymandering to the increasing polarization and divisive extreme partisan leanings of elected officials.

The idea is, that when districts are drawn to include more of a balance of constituents from multiple political parties, then candidates must campaign more as centrists.  Those who are elected will have campaigned in a way that reached out to not just members of a single party.

By contrast, when we now often have gerrymandered districts, such that democrats can run on an extreme liberal platform to appease a mostly democratic district, and repuclicans can likewise run on an extreme conservative platform to appease a mostly republican district, we end up essentially electing extremists who believe they have a mandate to govern or legislate based on these extreme platforms.

This explanation makes sense to me.  Previously gerrymandering seemed more like just annoying political hackery to me.  In light of the above, it seems closer to bordering on a threat to our being able to function as a democracy.


Regards,

:eyecrazy:


Agreed! But it goes way beyond mere gerrymandy, that's just the political parties keeping the maverics out and the incumbents in. That's what keeps anyone from running up against someone of their own party. Then we have the messing around at the general election to keep it a two party race to keep the independents in disarray.

But the real game is played up in DC where the big bucks are and where all the lobbies with a stake in the game make all those nice "contributions" to campaign funds to buy this or that vote on some issue concerning the special interests behind the lobby. And we all know it's a payoff always was, always will be but Senate or House "rules" allow it to be done. Just because there's no "promise" from the politico to vote one way or the other doesn't diminish the quid pro quo nature of the transaction. Certainly, if they can't get them on tape about it, it's not a crime. :) But "Senator, we'd like you to consider our position on this bill, blah blah..." and here's a nice contribution to your re-election slush fund while we're here....

And don't doubt for an instant that there isn't some executive assistant to the Senator who is responsible for telling him who's account is current and who's not. Or an assistant to the House representative who makes sure that the bigger contributing lobby gets "priority access" to the Honorable Congressman. But if you or I offered to sell our vote at the polls we'd be arrested!

It's corrupt at its face but "the rules" dictate what is acceptable and what isn't. But the piggies are writing the rules. And if the lobby can't actually write the check, well, here's a fundraiser in your name Senator, let's have a party and you get up, show a little face time, talk to all the nice people with fat checkbooks and smile pretty for the pictures *wet your lips* and whatever we take in goes in that nice re-election fund so you can outspend any upstarts that come along.

Meanwhile the Committee Chairmen (usually a nice Senior Senator) or in the case of Junior Senator Obama, a minor subcommittee of some subcommittee get to call hearings (but Obama never called one), lord it over witnesses or petitioners (did you make a contribution?), posture and make comments and generally obstruct any meaningful discussion of what might be important to We the People. If a member introduces a bill, it's the chairman's job to make sure that if it doesn't make bread for his party, the bill will die a silent death and never see a vote.

Anyone remember when the Senate Committee (or was it the House?) was grilling the CEO's of Chase, Citigroup and BofA about their credit card practices and their interest rates and fees? Did anything change? Were any laws written/re-written? When your bank is paying you 1% on your savings, WTF are you doing paying 23% on cash advances or 12% on your balances for? In truth, the difference is directly related to the "risk" the banks took by flinging credit cards to all those "Consumers". We have ceased being "productive" and we now have "consumption". In the old days, you died from "consumption". There is no penicillin for this disease. This country has been buried under its own debt by those who think that watching bottom lines is "managing" a company and guarding your parachute and cooking the books is "commensurate with shareholder interests".

Remember when companies paid dividends to shareholders? How come a CEO gets 100+ megabucks and the shareholders get a 20% loss in equity? Performance... yeah right.

The game is played and it's fixed in favor of the House. It's not even a gambler's game anymore. It's called buy buy buy until you get so big that if you fail the taxpayers will HAVE to bail you out to save themselves.

And the pundits score the games like sports events.
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Offline DWxchzrles

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Re: What does this mean to the economy?
« Reply #62 on: October 05, 2008, 08:53:04 AM »
Wells Fargo & Co. and Citigroup, Inc. are fighting for control of Wachovia

Citigroup Inc. agreed to purchase Wachovia's banking operations for $2.1 billion, a few days later Wells Fargo & Co. wanted to purchase Wachovia banking operations for $14.8 billion

A New York State Supreme Court Justice issued the order blocking the sale of Wachovia Corp. to Wells Fargo & Co

What is the best deal for the share holders of Wachovia and the American taxpayers?

The $2.1 billion offer of Citigroup Inc. or the a $14.8 billion offer from Wells Fargo & Co.
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Offline QwazyWabbit

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Re: What does this mean to the economy?
« Reply #63 on: October 05, 2008, 03:21:57 PM »
Citi only agreed after the regulators told them they'd guarantee the deal. They have no case, a better offer came along and Wachovia has to look out for "shareholder interests". If it's worth $2.1 Billion with federal guarantees, it's worth $14.8 Billion without them. Whether we are going to be bailing out Wells Fargo later this year remains to be seen. :)

I can't imagine why New York State Supreme court would have any authority or jurisdiction since they are all Federally regulated and the jusrisdiction ought to be U.S. Circuit court to start, but that was probably the only judge they could find fast enough to stop the deal from going through until the federal guys step in.

Nice game, huh?

My only problem with all these games is they are playing with MY money and MY retirement and I never asked to buy into this casino-roll. Gimme my 401(k) balances back and let me cash out because this has zero reward and maximum risk for no other reason than the people who were supposed to be looking out for my funds were insane.
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Offline The Dreaming Dragon

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Offline Arm0r

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Re: What does this mean to the economy?
« Reply #65 on: October 09, 2008, 10:49:36 AM »
O.k.....id like a few opinions or educated guesses on this due to the fact my knowledge on things on this is probably thinner than most.   I was watching Glenn Beck last night and as usual he had a whole parade of people on his show--economist, harvard professors, other government types and they were all talking about the same issue--the economy....well Glenn Beck kept saying as if to make sure everyone knew that "this is the begining of the end of America as we know it or America period".

Now I don't wanna come off as a scared little girl or anything but how accurate is he in his words?   Any info or educated outlooks would be helpful.
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Offline Shovel.Ds

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Re: What does this mean to the economy?
« Reply #66 on: October 09, 2008, 11:18:11 AM »
I psted this in the Obama bashing thread in error, it was meant for this thread...oops


this guy was way ahead of his time, musta had a crystal ball

"[The] Bank of the United States... is one of the most deadly hostility existing, against the principles and form of our Constitution... An institution like this, penetrating by its branches every part of the Union, acting by command and in phalanx, may, in a critical moment, upset the government. I deem no government safe which is under the vassalage of any self-constituted authorities, or any other authority than that of the nation, or its regular functionaries. What an obstruction could not this bank of the United States, with all its branch banks, be in time of war! It might dictate to us the peace we should accept, or withdraw its aids. Ought we then to give further growth to an institution so powerful, so hostile?" --Thomas Jefferson to Albert Gallatin, 1803. ME 10:437


"That we are overdone with banking institutions which have banished the precious metals and substituted a more fluctuating and unsafe medium, that these have withdrawn capital from useful improvements and employments to nourish idleness, that the wars of the world have swollen our commerce beyond the wholesome limits of exchanging our own productions for our own wants, and that, for the emolument of a small proportion of our society who prefer these demoralizing pursuits to labors useful to the whole, the peace of the whole is endangered and all our present difficulties produced, are evils more easily to be deplored than remedied." --Thomas Jefferson to Abbe Salimankis, 1810. ME 12:379


"I sincerely believe... that banking establishments are more dangerous than standing armies, and that the principle of spending money to be paid by posterity under the name of funding is but swindling futurity on a large scale." --Thomas Jefferson to John Taylor, 1816. ME 15:23


"The banks... have the regulation of the safety-valves of our fortunes, and... condense and explode them at their will." --Thomas Jefferson to John Adams, 1819. ME 15:224
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Offline Arm0r

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Re: What does this mean to the economy?
« Reply #67 on: October 10, 2008, 01:44:14 AM »
O.k.....id like a few opinions or educated guesses on this due to the fact my knowledge on things on this is probably thinner than most.   I was watching Glenn Beck last night and as usual he had a whole parade of people on his show--economist, harvard professors, other government types and they were all talking about the same issue--the economy....well Glenn Beck kept saying as if to make sure everyone knew that "this is the begining of the end of America as we know it or America period".

Now I don't wanna come off as a scared little girl or anything but how accurate is he in his words?   Any info or educated outlooks would be helpful.

were my questions stupid thus undeserving of an answer?  :???: or maybe noones read it yet  :oksign:
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Offline quadz

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Re: What does this mean to the economy?
« Reply #68 on: October 10, 2008, 02:54:08 AM »
I was watching Glenn Beck last night and as usual he had a whole parade of people on his show--economist, harvard professors, other government types and they were all talking about the same issue--the economy....well Glenn Beck kept saying as if to make sure everyone knew that "this is the begining of the end of America as we know it or America period".

Since the recent collapses, I've been reading daily OpEd pieces in the newspaper with varying opinions on how catastrophic the crisis is likely to be, how long it might last, etc.

Even the most optimistic assessments project we'll probably be in a fairly deep rescession for a few years.  But most also seem to think we can avoid a repeat of 1929 and the Depression.

This article is from eight days ago, which seems like a long time given how rapidly things have been moving:

http://www.time.com/time/business/article/0,8599,1846450,00.html

Quote
But while we certainly face a global slowdown, we may yet avoid another depression. Now, unlike in the Great Depression, central banks and finance ministries know it's better to run deficits and print money than to suffer massive losses of output and jobs. And the introduction of U.S.-style deposit insurance in many countries means banks are less vulnerable to runs by depositors than they once were. Finally, the possibility still exists (though the odds are slimmer than they were a year ago) that the Asian and Middle Eastern sovereign wealth funds could step in to recapitalize U.S. and European banks before they succumb to another great contraction.


But the ripple effects have definitely been spreading to other countries.  I've been watching the headlines on Iceland over just the past three days:

Wednesday: "Iceland teeters on the brink of bankruptcy"
http://ap.google.com/article/ALeqM5hJdb2RwrEg_X8yNRHcVvn_OE9vKwD93LRO8O1

    A full-blown collapse of Iceland's financial system would send shock waves
    across Europe, given the heavy investment by Icelandic banks and companies
    across the continent.

Thursday: "Iceland is all but officially bankrupt"
http://www.iht.com/articles/2008/10/09/business/icebank.php

Friday: "Iceland bank collapse sparks fury"
http://www.itv.com/News/Articles/Iceland-bank-collapse-sparks-fury-760242567.html


...so there's clearly some pretty heavy stuff going down.....

:uhoh:
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Offline quadz

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Re: What does this mean to the economy?
« Reply #69 on: October 10, 2008, 03:12:24 AM »

Hmm...

"Snowballing sell-off drives Dow down 679 points"
http://www.iht.com/articles/ap/2008/10/10/business/NA-US-Financial-Meltdown.php

"Stocks are on track for their worst year since 1937"
http://www.chron.com/disp/story.mpl/nation/6050283.html


"Treasury Weighs Next Step to Stem Crisis"
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB122359597433321245.html?mod=googlenews_wsj


:boat:

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Offline DWxchzrles

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Re: What does this mean to the economy?
« Reply #70 on: October 10, 2008, 01:24:11 PM »
$4 trillion is gone up in smoke in global equities this week (Oct. 6-10), many countries have cut interest rates, the United States cut the prime rate ½% to 1-½%, that reduction of ½% should help some people

In the last year the Dow has dropped from 14,280.00 to 8,451.19, at the close of today’s trading

This week alone the Dow has lost 18%, Oct. 6-10
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Offline reaper

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Re: What does this mean to the economy?
« Reply #71 on: October 10, 2008, 04:14:25 PM »
Obama's going on about some executives taking some work related outing for 400,000

 :lolsign:

I'm sure it goes far far beyond that

On another note i'm not suprised that the banks went under.  I tried to get a car loan for 6 thousand dollars, and couldn't anywhere, but had no problem finding a loan for 25 thousand.  I'm sure that helped the guy who made 500million in bonuses.
« Last Edit: October 10, 2008, 04:22:17 PM by reaper »
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Offline DWxchzrles

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Re: What does this mean to the economy?
« Reply #72 on: October 10, 2008, 04:39:04 PM »
Senator Obama is talking about the $85 billion dollar bail out for American International Group (AIG) from the Federal Government

Less than a week later AIG spent $440,000 in a posh retreat resort in California, thousands of dollars spent on catered banquets, golf outings and visits to the resort's spa and salon for executives 

Sullivan, who ran AIG from 2005 until June of this year, encouraged the board of directors to waive pay guidelines to win a $5 million bonus for 2007 - even as the company lost $5 billion in the 4th quarter of that year


Update

On Wednesday (10-8-2008) the Federal Government agreed to give AIG another $37.8 billion dollars
« Last Edit: October 10, 2008, 04:57:03 PM by DWxchzrles »
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Offline FYATroll

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Re: What does this mean to the economy?
« Reply #73 on: October 10, 2008, 06:17:16 PM »
For anyone who sat and watched CNBC today just remember today will go down in history and be taught in economic classes forever. The market went down 600+ points and then rallied all the way back...TWICE. It had a 1000+ swing which is completely unheard of. Quite frankly, this market is IMPOSSIBLE to trade in right now and unless you plan on putting money in there and leaving it for 10+ years then you probably should just stay away...cuz any short term trading is somewhere around impossible. On a side note Bernanke, Paulson and basically the rest of the financial sector of our govt. should resign. They've be so reactionary instead of pro-active its absolutely shameful. We knew about this financial meltdown a year and half ago or more. We knew that banks/lendors/insurance companies were completely engrossed in this mortgage mess......and the brilliance that is paulson and bernanke did nothing. When I see Jim Cramer screaming every day that they should do so something for months and months..and they sit on their hands..then I wonder to myself why our these guys in there and not Cramer.

Finally, in all seriousness, there is still a small chance imo that we could head past a recession and into a despression...and i'm not even kidding Barnie Frank can take like 80% of the blame with the rest being split between those handing out bad loans, those taking on the bad loans, those insuring the bad loans, and some of the corrupt CEO's...so bravo Mr. Frank.
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Offline reaper

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Re: What does this mean to the economy?
« Reply #74 on: October 10, 2008, 08:18:26 PM »
I blame the bankers for the problem, since they are the root cause.  Governemnt mandates that caused banks to give out poor loans was extremely negligable, considering the extend of the problem.

As far as the government not fixing problems ahead of time, I blame the president.  It's not like he was saying, hey maybe these policies we issues in the past were good at the time, but now we gotta change them, he didn't say anything like that.
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