Ye Religion Thread

[QuakeDuke]

Are believers allowed to consider and question the possibilities of what an eternal existence in some sort of Heavenly afterlife might conceivably be like?  Or, at least, consider what kind of existence one hopes Heaven isn't?  Or whether an eternal existence without any kind of strife or down-side or even emotional lows could even be bearable? Or must one simply trust that whatever Heaven is, an eternity of it would be something truly to look forward to and be excited about.

Many regards Quadz, and I can only say in answer to your questions (and, by the way,  contrary to many centuries of trying to use the promise of heaven and the fear of hell to attempt to conform and control the common man [who I are one - common man that is ] to the viewpoint of a select few who are supposedly the only ones who have "true" unction and revelation of / from God)  yes, yes, yes, and yes. 

 I am in some respects loath (although this is a religion thread) to quote from (what I consider to be) scriptures (not wanting to start one of those oft found "eww.. who decides what is scripture?" threads) I can best express my thoughts of that type of attempted control in this manner.

Scriptures say in the Christian New Testament in 1 Corinthians 2:9 "But as it is written, Eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man, the things which God hath prepared for them that love him."

I like this concept because it puts everyone, believers and non-believers alike, on the same level playing field.  Those who, for whatever reason, choose not to believe in any kind of heaven - which IS their right - really don't have  a clue whether what they believe, or don't believe as the case may be, about heaven or whether it exists is true. Those who, for whatever reason, chose to believe in heaven - which IS their right - really don't have a clue whether what they believe about heaven or whether it exists is true. To me, the above quotation says God designed it that way on purpose- not to confuse or confound man, but in essence to say to man "no matter what you learn, postulate or dream up, you haven't even begun to understand me or the good I intend for you". I guess I look at it from the standpoint a God who isn't bigger than anything I could dream up wouldn't be much use would he?

You ask

Are believers allowed to consider and question the possibilities of what an eternal existence in some sort of Heavenly afterlife might conceivably be like?

In all my years of study (not that I'm by any means anyone) I've never found anywhere in what's considered the Christian OT & NT - whether in their "original languages" or a modern language - where we aren't allowed to consider and question. I rather think we find many instances in these writings where not only are we encouraged to consider and question we find  man has done just that. I just can't seem to find anywhere where God every sizzled anyone because of that - only for not doing what they did know to do. I rather think our questioning natures are part of a God given list of abilites, that like many others, we don't always use in ways that help.

You ask

Or whether an eternal existence without any kind of strife or down-side or even emotional lows could even be bearable?

Personally,  put side by side, I've had more than enough of those to last me through more lifetimes than I will be around to live - I look forward to an existence where none of the "life" things I've experienced are found, although I must say, they really do influence many of the views I have and I hope in positive way. 

Again, I'm not any different in these respects than many others (probably some frequent these forums) but I do know what it's like to be totally helpless and at the mercy of people who control your very existence in every way you can imagine and be at the place where you really have no idea (or hope) that the situation will ever change. I know what it's like to have to stand and watch those closest to you go through things you would give your very life to keep from happening to them and yet you are totally helpless to prevent it and have to endure it anyway. I know the emptyness of being in the middle of people everywhere and yet being totally alone, and trying to numb the lonliness with drugs, alcohol & sex. I know what it's like to OD and I don't mean just "get overloaded & sick"  Yes, and I believe most would agree, shit happens, it's no fun, but it sure would be nice if it didn't.

Since these things are common to man (er, happen to everybody?) as a minister, it's ludicrous to me (remember I'm a christian preacher and I really don't mean to offend anyone - christian or non-christian) for any church  to teach / preach that Jesus died for the forgiveness of men's sins, then attempt to lay out a list of sin that are somehow "badder"   than others (especially those that aren't clearly listed) with some so bad you can't get forgiveness for.  Jesus himself put it this way in Matthew 12:31 "Wherefore I say unto you, All manner of sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven unto men: but the blasphemy against the Holy Ghost shall not be forgiven unto men." (verses 31-37 for more depth). Notice Jesus does not specify what the sin is. Man tries to define sin based on their current "blacklists" - Jesus frequently only told people to "go and sin no more". 

You ask

"Or must one simply trust that whatever Heaven is, an eternity of it would be something truly to look forward to and be excited about."

In a nutshell (where on earth did that expression come from anyway?) the very definition of heaven in almost every religion I have studied (not all!) is a place of extreme esctasy and well-being and is something to be looked forward to and excited about. A bunk bud of mine once said to me "I'd rather believe and find out I was right than to not believe and find out I was wrong". Personally, I have a hard time with the concept that heaven is a place where nothing happens. In fact, I rather think everyone is just gonna be totally blown away by the way things really shake down.

Didn't mean to make it such a long read.

Laters...

QD

ps.

I didn't think you were being sarcastic (I usually can't tell unless it's pretty heavy ) the sigh! came from (regardless of who would contest this statement) my actually feeling and identifying with the emotion you conveyed with the statements.

qd

[jägermonsta]

Where was heaven before you were alive? 

[Waffle Whiffer]

That was some good readin Quakeduke.

As for the 72 virgins, I had that already here.  Life's been good! 

One of the things I'm looking forward to in Heaven is knowlage of "everything" (I hope that's one of the bennifits).

[QuakeDuke]

Where was heaven before you were alive? 

If you're kidding,  the answer is "Same place it is now and will be after I die?"

If you're not,  my answer has to be "No one knows". If we did, no one would be hanging around here on this mud ball I'll bet!"

My personal opinion  is, "Who cares!?" as long as I get there.....


QD

[QuakeDuke]

That was some good readin Quakeduke.

As for the 72 virgins, I had that already here.  Life's been good! 

One of the things I'm looking forward to in Heaven is knowlage of "everything" (I hope that's one of the bennifits).

Thanks. I do believe I have a few questions to ask myself In fact, I'm keeping a running list......

QD

[jägermonsta]

Where was heaven before you were alive? 

If you're kidding,  the answer is "Same place it is now and will be after I die?"

If you're not,  my answer has to be "No one knows". If we did, no one would be hanging around here on this mud ball I'll bet!"

My personal opinion  is, "Who cares!?" as long as I get there.....


QD

I ask that because I believe your reality just ends when you die, just as your reality just began as you were born. This is a terrifying outlook to have but is the most reasonable in my opinion.

[quadz]

Hi QD, thanks for your thoughtful reply.

Are believers allowed to consider and question the possibilities of what an eternal existence in some sort of Heavenly afterlife might conceivably be like?

In all my years of study (not that I'm by any means anyone) I've never found anywhere in what's considered the Christian OT & NT - whether in their "original languages" or a modern language - where we aren't allowed to consider and question. I rather think we find many instances in these writings where not only are we encouraged to consider and question we find

[quadz]

I believe your reality just ends when you die, just as your reality just began as you were born. This is a terrifying outlook to have but is the most reasonable in my opinion.

I suspect the same thing, myself.  But is it really so terrifying?

One tends not to be terrified when falling asleep at night...

And once a state of non-existence is reached, no notions of terror, fear or any other emotion have any relevance to an ex-being.


Regards,

[Whirlingdervish]

I've thought, for some time now, that belief in heaven is really just wishful thinking.
It's a bi-product of the combination of the completely natural hope of all humans that things will be better someday, and the realization that life is finite so someday might not ever come. (but, conveniently, death will...)
There is also a very good reason that there is a heaven-like concept that's central to almost all religion:
Any religion on this planet can be defined as man-made, since no one can prove that a god exists who "wrote them".

These beliefs have persisted because, in spite of all of the technological innovations and much higher standard of living, people are still unhappy about their situation and helpless to change it in a way that would make them truly happy in perpetuity. This is a trend based on greed and selfishness, and no amount of religion will explain it away. Science can though.

People will never be happy, by design, because we are animals with hardwired instincts that increase our ability to survive and breed. Greed is a hardwired mechanism that makes us want to make things our own, like territory (for a constant source of food/shelter/safety), and breeding partners (to insure the passing of your genes). We are designed to always want more until we're dead. Unhappiness due to unfulfilled wants, is actually a survival mechanism.

People are also one of few species that use tools to get what they need/want. When faced with a problem, we make tools to solve it. Thus Religion is a tool we created shortly after developing the ability to think and reason, because we found that we could be nearly incapacitated by this newfound ability to ponder the "what if's" and the "whys" unless we made up reasons and answers to these questions. We "need" to have answers otherwise we'd become incredibly depressed withour inability to control/understand our surroundings. Depression makes for a very poor breeding specimen and a very weak hunter and is quite unnacceptable if you want to survive in the wild.

The reason that many religions have the same core values wrapped in slightly different packages, is that humans
all have the same basic wants and wishes, and they are the creators of religions. Religion/superstition is the crutch that props up the minds of people who "need" a reason for things to be the way they are in order to function without being overcome by doubts. It is also used as justification for acts that a person might not consider morally acceptable in any other situation. I found the majority of "pious" people are really just more adept at fooling themself than most, and they often assume to have all the answers or at least access to them thru an omnipotent "god".

Simple acceptance that we are powerless to change the universe around us to the degree that we would like to, and that we will never be capable of understanding it's nuances, would be profoundly more useful to the species than making up religions to explain away the things that we can't figure out, and create the illusion of control.

Unfortunately, it would be a lot harder, to accept that the world is not under our control no matter how much faith we have.
And people like to take the easy way out.

These, my friends, are the reason we can't extract ourselves from the trap of religion.
People have been and will always be greedy and need a reason for the world to be so unfair, other than "it just is", because we wouldn't survive to breed otherwise.

[jägermonsta]

Dude is that like a term paper you've written or did you throw that togather in about 5 minutes?

Well written. That is pretty much what I view myself. Kudos.

[Whirlingdervish]

it took more than 5... I'd say about 30 minutes, while I was filing stuff, and printing out orders/picklists this morning.
It wouldn't have taken that long, but I revised it a bit before the final "post".

 

[Wheet]

I want that on a poster so I can hang it in my room Whirling. Very well put.

[Jay Dolan]

Yea.   

[paradisel0st]

Nicely said Whirling. 

[Whirlingdervish]

It might sound pretty good, but it's not a bullet proof theory.
It doesn't take into account the effects of society on the individual person's ability to
control their greed. It's more of a lone human in the wild kinda situation, which goes back to some of our earliest
evolutionary roots that were recognizably human. Since then, we have evolved in more ways than just physically.

When we get together, motives get a lot more difficult to ascertain and humans actually have
evolved a certain control switch in the brain to limit the greed reaction, for the sake of being part of a society.
(which greatly increases your odds of survival)
Unfortunately, I think that religion and superstition and belief in a higher power came slightly before
truly organized society took over the course of human evolution and made us into physically useless
and hairless monkeys who are too weak to climb trees. Now we have no choice but to be social organisms or die.

check out this link for some interesting info on the "greed center" of your brains...
http://news.yahoo.com/s/hsn/20061005/hl_hsn/studyspotsthebrainsselfishnessoffswitch