Ye Religion Thread

[quadz]

There is no accounting for natural disasters obviously. Specific areas are more prone to such conditions because of the climate and location of said territories. any destruction is completely randomized. However how much data can be compiled comparing suffering by natural disasters vs suffering by hands of man? i would think the margin by comparison would be quite considerable. Do i have the answers why natural disasters occur? No. Perhaps it's mentioned in the bible somewhere. However since man has tinkered with it, i find no practical use in looking for it.

While I appreciate your having stated that looking to the Bible for answers is not useful, none of this affects your original proposal that "suffering is the work of the followers of evil."

Unless you believe that no species of animal can experience suffering, it should be apparent that the fossil record is nothing if not evidence of hundreds of millions of years of animal suffering.  (Certainly not all animals have equivalent nervous systems, but vertibrates originated over 500 million years ago. And placental mammals, whose brains possess both a neocortex and a corpus collosum, have been around for more than 50 million years.)

Again, this sort of suffering has been going on in nature for hundreds of times longer than homo sapiens have even existed.

So who are the "followers of evil" who have produced hundreds of millions of years of suffering in nature prior to human existence?

[|iR|Focalor]

ever think suffering is the work of the followers of evil?

Ever think suffering is the absence of sufficient serotonin in the brain?

[M^tster]

My point being so many people think there is a "blind faith" you must have to have a relationship with God. You don't, I talk to him throughout the day and sometimes I'm like "wtf is this about?". Not in those words per say but I do relay my doubts and complaints now that I know he still hears me.

One of the key sources for skepticism on this point, of course, is that the world appears to function precisely as one would expect it to function if we primates were merely "talking" to our own imaginations, and nobody was really listening:



Natural disasters affect the cruel and kind, the faithful and the faithless in identical proportions.  Churches routinely collapse on believers who have congregated there for shelter and prayer during earthquakes just like any other building. etc. etc. etc.

In short: there appears to be no external effect that would differentiate between such 'talking' really just occurring in your own imagination, vs. talking to a universe that is 'listening'.

Those laws were the old laws of the old testament, and do not apply now. The stoning part that is...after Jesus came all the old laws changed.

Except for the part where Jesus explicitly stated otherwise: "Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil. For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled." -- Matthew 5:17-18

Eschatologists and apologists of course jump through crazy hoops trying to parse this into some form that matches their current belief set.

(Just as they try to do with the other multitude of Biblical contradictions.)

And yet you can count the number of preachers and pastors who refuse to cite verses from the Old Testament as authoritative during their sermons on probably zero fingers.

When they stop trying to have it both ways, and start preaching from Bibles where the Old Testament has been relegated to an appendix clearly marked with a large type disclaimer stating: "NOT TO BE TAKEN LITERALLY. JESUS CHANGED ALL OF THIS." then maybe your argument would have some force.  In the meantime we both know it doesn't get preached that way.

I have learned through observation and history that as God gave us free will he gave the earth and laws of physics free reign as  well. Who is to say that a bolt of lightening  was not supposed to kill me at twenty years old, but because I believed, and did something right or was ebullient enough that He spared me from that fate only to be hit by a bus when I'm forty and served my purpose? Ever heard Einsteins statement that if you match the frequency of a reality then that will be the reality that is real? I kind of see it in that light. And yes I was paraphrasing that.

[Whirlingdervish]

So who are the "followers of evil" who have produced hundreds of millions of years of suffering in nature prior to human existence?

I would guess homosexual bonobos are the root cause. If modern day gay people can cause Iranian earthquakes, ancient gay monkeys surely brought God's wrath upon the animal kingdom.

[ex]

I have learned through observation and history that as God gave us free will he gave the earth and laws of physics free reign as  well. Who is to say that a bolt of lightening  was not supposed to kill me at twenty years old, but because I believed, and did something right or was ebullient enough that He spared me from that fate only to be hit by a bus when I'm forty and served my purpose? Ever heard Einsteins statement that if you match the frequency of a reality then that will be the reality that is real? I kind of see it in that light. And yes I was paraphrasing that.

This is the problem with all religious types.  You're aligning things that are inherent in the Universe as ordained to us by "God" instead of admitting to the fact that these things are merely inherently here, for no real reason at all.  At best, these are all chemical reactions which cause base atoms to pair up and form structures in the Universe, everything from bacteria to galaxies, all simple chemical reactions.  There's nothing pre-destined, for absolutely sure not by "God."

A lightning strike or bus hitting you will both happen if you are randomly at the wrong place at the wrong time, "God" has nothing to do with it!

God did not give us free will, humans and all animals have that by nature, in order to survive.  Free will allows us the drive necessary to find food and shelter and a mate to preserve the species.  When you put "God" in the mix of that, the logic falls apart.  Something which is derived from a primitive understanding of how the Universe works (God), something that is also unprovable in scientific arenas, will never work when you're trying to advance your understanding of how things really work.

Remember, merely 150 years ago, we thought that when people got sick it was because they had angered "God" and he was punishing them mercilessly to teach them the errors of their ways.  It isn't until the last 150 years that, no, it was because of things called GERMS that make us sick, and "God" had zero to do with it.  Same with AIDS, or cancer, or anything else terminal, "God" doesn't punish people, most of which are good, to die miserably and slowly and painfully, if he existed.

Here's something into that as well:  Not a SINGLE PERSON has reversed their cancer or AIDS by praying to "God" about it.  EVERY PERSON has died who prayed to "God" solely to help them.  You want to know who's survived with cancer or AIDS?  People who go to hospitals, and get treated by doctors who know, you guessed it, SCIENCE.

This whole "God" horseshit has to go if we as a race are going to survive.  It's making our mentalities go backwards instead of forwards.

[fdrjk]

^ That's exactly what I was thinking, but didn't feel like typing it all out. lolgod

[ex]

Steaks and scotch excellent typing fuel. 

[|iR|Focalor]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jJuFasxh3P0

[QuakeDuke]

Here's something into that as well:  Not a SINGLE PERSON has reversed their cancer or AIDS by praying to "God" about it.  EVERY PERSON has died who prayed to "God" solely to help them.  You want to know who's survived with cancer or AIDS?  People who go to hospitals, and get treated by doctors who know, you guessed it, SCIENCE.

This whole "God" horseshit has to go if we as a race are going to survive.  It's making our mentalities go backwards instead of forwards.

ex, I don't think I know you, but I look at this thread from time to time. Some can remember, early on I expressed my hopes the thread would be used as a way of expressing one's belief's (or non-beliefs) without any judgement from either side but rather be a free exchange of ideas. I guess that was a hope that perhaps people could rise above the usual degeneration that people seem to gravitate toward. It's sad, but I once again am disappointed in our - yes our - inability to do so - to allow someone to express their opinion, belief without having others spend so much time making fun and downright disrespecting others beliefs.

I suppose my continual hope for the best has some roots in the fact that at the same time I spent 2 + years in Southeast Asia learning just exactly how  horrible we treat one another I at the same time met people who were supposed to be "the enemy" show compassion and love toward those who were supposed to be their enemy.

After being put back together "by science" and I set off metal detectors everywhere I go , I was told by those same minions of science at the age of 23 I would not live to be 25. I gave up on their "help" at the age of 27 and turned to Jesus. Here's the bottom line:  At my age, it doesn't matter a whole lot to me whether people accept what I think or say, but I DO NOT depend on doctors or science to keep me going - I depend on my relationship with God through Jesus Christ. You might say, I'm one of those who you say don't exist. Since in August I will be turning 72, I'd say that's a little more than most, and I might drop dead tomorrow. However, I will say this (and Quadz knows I mean it) you are entirely entitled to your opinion as is everyone who follows this board but so are those who do not agree or believe the same as you do.

It would be nice if EVERYONE really did what we are quick to say - "treat others as you would have them treat you" or give others the same rights we expect others to give us....

Respectfully,

QD

[ex]

No, you don't know me more than likely, even though I've been playing q2 for about 14 years.    I guess sometimes I get irritated by the lack of logic that some of the religious types have.  It really hit a fever point of frustration with me when we just had a massive debate with "ruiner" over the existence of God, which devolved into gays undermining society and several other things which had little to do with the original topic.  Made me hold my head in pain.  :/

Sometimes I think I let my mentality get the best of me.  I do have my beliefs but it's hard to not be a prick to people when they are so adamant about beliefs equating to proof.  It just doesn't.  Beliefs equate to beliefs.

I'm not sure what your health problems are, but with a metal detector being set off I'm sure they're fun    My main point is, however, that without science the chances of surviving terminal diseases or conditions like cancer or AIDS are pretty much 0%.  Maybe if you have less life-threatening conditions that aren't so absolutely terminal, then yes having faith could help keep your spirits high, and in turn help you win the battle.  There is definite proof that keeping your spirits high will lengthen your lifespan by a decade or more, and that's if you're healthy.  If you're sick, you can easily squeeze out an extra 5 or more years if you keep your mind in the right place.    But in cases where you have something truly terminal, like cancer/AIDS, if you don't go in for the help of the doctors in that scenario, you can start picking out a casket IMHO.

Anyway, sorry if I came off as rude, I was just commenting on how some religious types can get.  I will say that for sure there are a lot of good, kind-hearted religious types as well, and I can tell you're one of those, so I extend the olive branch to you. 

[|iR|Focalor]

I suppose my continual hope for the best has some roots in the fact that at the same time I spent 2 + years in Southeast Asia learning just exactly how  horrible we treat one another I at the same time met people who were supposed to be "the enemy" show compassion and love toward those who were supposed to be their enemy.

If what you're vaguely describing is being POW in Vietnam... no disrespect at all to you or your service, but I have quite a few friends and acquaintances who have told me 180 degree opposite stories about POW treatment during their tours of Vietnam. Not a single one of them would describe their captors as being anything in the same ball park as "compassionate". Some of them were kept in holes not wide enough to lay in and not tall enough to stand in. For months they were fed one handful of maggot ridden rice a day, while they pissed and shit in the hole they were locked in. They ate the maggots for protein. By the time they let them out, they were on the verge of starvation, their asses, legs, and feet were completely skinless, and they couldn't even crawl to get away. And the ones who received such treatment counted themselves LUCKY.

So before you go telling everyone how nice and sweet the NVA was, I think a lot of other veterans would prefer the more accurate truth be known about it. Some of those guys enlisted or were drafted along with their childhood friends and saw them brutalized to death as they were helpless to defend themselves from it. Some of them credit their faith in God as the reason why they were spared from death. Personally, I don't believe it. I think they should owe a little more of it to the Marine Corps for teaching them how to be hardened survivors, as well as themselves for having the inner strength to persevere through such treatment.

These same people are the #1 reason why I didn't enlist in the Army or Marines several years ago when I was ready to run off and do it. I've heard too many tell me how they were promised a big slice of the American Pie after their time was up only to be cheated and shoved aside and forgotten after the war was over. Maybe the military doesn't conduct business the same way anymore, but I'm not willing to take the chance unless I have to. It's ridiculous the kind of shit they pull even TODAY. People think female veterans should have the right to have their insurance cover stupid boob jobs... when there aren't even enough kevlar vests to outfit everyone on the front lines. Bullshit, sister. You want bigger tits, YOU pay for 'em!

[quadz]

Howdy QD!

I was told by those same minions of science at the age of 23 I would not live to be 25. I gave up on their "help" at the age of 27 and turned to Jesus.

Ya know, I think you only posted that because I'm wearing my CORRELATION ≠ CAUSATION T-shirt today!

[The Dreaming Dragon]

Sometimes you have to question reality...

http://videosift.com/video/Muppets-hilariously-improvised-Banter-on-Camera-Test-1979

[QuakeDuke]

Howdy QD!

I was told by those same minions of science at the age of 23 I would not live to be 25. I gave up on their "help" at the age of 27 and turned to Jesus.

Ya know, I think you only posted that because I'm wearing my CORRELATION ≠ CAUSATION T-shirt today!

Howdy, Quadz. How are you doing these days?

Which has stood the test of time

[M^tster]

Just so you all know I was diagnosed with Scleraderma, look it up, at age 18 and told I could have about 5 years to live and lose function in my hands. I am 37 and can kick most peoples asses at a game that requires hands most of all. I attribute this to faith and constant working out of the hands by playing quake2. so nanner nanner! 
 No offense to those who do not have this belief.