TrenchBroom - Make Q2 Maps the Fast and Easy Way!

[r1]

I'm sure Kits will manage, and will eventually refine the process to keep things on the grid. I'm actually curious to see the final result myself. After all, I did mention this was his first crack at it. So you can't expect perfection right away, and more to the point: judge the editor or general method based on a screenshot. For example in my screenshot, each part of geometry was created using only clipping, but most wouldn't know that unless I told them. I also had no problem getting things to compile, or getting brushes aligned on the grid. For most part it's just a matter of visual esthetics. Also some examples shown here might not be the best ones, but only serve as testimonials for how easy it is to get started.  You're welcome to come by Whale to see the latest results, or download them here when they go live:

http://http.tastyspleen.net/~p1/quake2/weapons/maps/?C=M;O=D

Anyway, minor clipping glitches aside, this will not deter us, believe me. So far we've hacked bsp in raw memory, experimented with all sorts of unorthodox bsp injection methods, and dealt with much harder problems than this. I know you're mostly talking about CSG subtraction but I sense something else. It is just my opinion that anyone using Quark for anything more than surface tagging or texture alignment, is seriously wasting their time. With enough experience you can reduce the pain threshold only by so much, but why would you want to put up with it at all, if you knew there was a better way? I think the general approach to certain mapping aspects is rather stale and outdated, and could use a face lift, given it's already 2014. Some users would prefer a simpler and more intuitive entry point to get started. This includes workflows in editors like Hammer (or even 3d packages like 3ds max for modelling). So even though the bsp compilation fundamentals haven't changed for the quake family of games, most actual mapping steps can now be done much quicker or be done away with altogether in Trenchbroom. For example, how many editors that you know of, let you accurately select obscured faces without having to rotate the view? Also I think you're forgetting that I was the one who made these statement earlier:

Boolean subtraction tends to create ugly geometry triangulation so it's easy to get non-convex shapes and  brushes that will not compile as bsp. This is fine for some game engines like CryEngine which can even load ugly geometry from sketchup. For simple box operations like a door this might work, but in other cases it'll surely lead to trouble. In editors like 3ds max or sketchup, boolean operations always result in ugly triangles everywhere, and sometimes even unattached faces.

From the above assertions its safe to say, and one can deduce that I'm also against cutting corners if it indeed results in a mess later. Instead I'm for the most optimal and safe workflow possible that any common person can adopt. And if it can be done in new, faster, and innovative ways that transfer power to the user via intuitive controls, it's a win-win for everyone. But if not, it's best to know why, backed up by latest facts and not just generalizations, or general negativity. Better yet, it's good to have used the editor first. Splitting brushes using clipping doesn't produce the same results as Boolean subtraction using a helper brush. If you're clipping the right way, it's not something to be feared but embraced. You should be able to do it over and over again without repercussions, otherwise what's the point? It's a feature that's there to be used. The boolean subtraction method you're talking about didn't make the cut, and isn't even part of Trenchbroom. This editor tries to limit the invalid choices, but since it's still under development, naturally it doesn't cover all cases. Since we established that we're not using any complex objects to punch holes in geometry but instead just split it into pieces, this makes it pretty safe, unless you're trying to purposefully create micro-brushes. But I don't see that happening naturally if you use the grid liked I do. I've already explained how to create angled brushes that are perfectly aligned on the grid if anyone's interested. Sure its good to be careful, and plan ahead since you'll typically get better looking maps overall, but it's also good not to worry too much when you're starting out. Users should be free to pick whatever workflow they feel comfortable with. They shouldn't need to refer to elaborate blueprints before starting out, but instead have their map grow organically as the ideas come to them. We don't all think alike, yet we certainly have way too many square maps, partially because of limited editor choices. We need more organic looking geometry to mix it up. Mapping should be a fun art form, but editors (like Quark, Hammer, Radiant) make it a general turn off.

Sure I'm enthusiastic, because I see real potential in a map editor for the first time in 17 years quake 2 has been around. I want map making to be easy and fun for most, not just for a select few.  Anyway, by the sound of it, it seems you haven't even tried Trenchbroom, so I don't understand why you're so eager to write it off.  Even with all its flaws, this editor isn't like the rest of them, and shouldn't be put in the same dust bin. It's never too late to try something fresh because the results might surprise you!

[ImperiusDamian]

This all looks very fine and promising and I'm going to give it a try myself (I built a few simple maps back in the day using Yahn Bernier's BSP editor) but Trenchbroom is lacking a big, BIG something.

LINUX BINARIES!!!   

[quadz]

Well since TB is open source, I guess I could try adding my plane-clipping digging brush feature...

Heh, it's pretty fun.

I have the new feature bound to Ctrl-Delete (or on the Edit->Actions menu as "Clip By Selected".)

With the grid size set to something large like 64x64, it's really easy to carve out hallways and rooms and tunnels inside a solid brush.

Currently it can only handle axis-aligned clips, as it works off the bounding box of the selected brush. I.e. wherever the bounding box of the selected brush is sitting when Ctrl-Del is pressed, is the portion that gets carved out of the map. (There's nothing in principle preventing it from being made to work with rotated brushes, however that would tend to open the door to the sort of problems of micro-brush remnants that Panjoo mentioned. Whereas tunneling around on a grid avoids all that.)

I guess it has a slight Minecraft flavor, except that one can carve out arbitrary sized rectangular rooms and tunnels in one stroke.

Unfortunately there's currently a bug where it tends to leave around some duplicate brushes. I'll need to fix that before attempting to make any sort of real map, as the duplicates are hard to spot without moving walls around.

Kinda fun to mess about with though.

[quadz]

The aforementioned bug isn't fixed yet, but the code for the new feature is on github now, in a tsmod branch:

https://github.com/tastyspleen/TrenchBroom

win_x64 binary available here:

http://tastyspleen.net/~quadz/code/TrenchBroom/


Edit: This was the first test of the "Clip By Selected" feature:

Started carving into a large monolith:




Beginning of a room inside the monolith:




Goofy... but fun

[NIN-IceFox]

We all gotta start somewhere =^.^= At first what I had looked pretty bad but evolved into something better over time as I worked on it.

And some screens of progress on my first map thanks to trenchbroom, if someone told me about a week ago I'd be pulling off something like this with no prior experience I wouldn't have believed it! I still need to fix quite a bit and get the airlock door to rotate with a switch so one can go out and get bfg in the UFO etc. if anyone wish to check the map in it's unfinished state (lighting and texture corrections badly needed) hop onto whale at 74.86.171.203:27910 and enter "vote map kitsune1" in the console to check it out!

[r1]

The aforementioned bug isn't fixed yet, but the code for the new feature is on github now, in a tsmod branch:

https://github.com/tastyspleen/TrenchBroom

win_x64 binary available here:

http://tastyspleen.net/~quadz/code/TrenchBroom/


Edit: This was the first test of the "Clip By Selected" feature:

Started carving into a large monolith:




Beginning of a room inside the monolith:




Goofy... but fun

Wow, really nice work quadz! Can't wait to try this out. Might have opened the Pandora's box here... Who knows maybe we can even create some crazy Minecraft type maps with this, and that'd be really sweet! 

[r1]

We all gotta start somewhere =^.^= At first what I had looked pretty bad but evolved into something better over time as I worked on it.

And some screens of progress on my first map thanks to trenchbroom, if someone told me about a week ago I'd be pulling off something like this with no prior experience I wouldn't have believed it! I still need to fix quite a bit and get the airlock door to rotate with a switch so one can go out and get bfg in the UFO etc. if anyone wish to check the map in it's unfinished state (lighting and texture corrections badly needed) hop onto whale at 74.86.171.203:27910 and enter "vote map kitsune1" in the console to check it out!

Amazing! I never expected someone to pick up mapping so quickly and make something so damn complex on their first try! Scary, I want to see what you'll do for the second map... Uraban map with sky scrapers? With Trenchbroom, it seems the possibilities are endless and all within your grasp

[quadz]

And some screens of progress on my first map thanks to trenchbroom

Sayyy, that actually looks legit. Nice work!

BTW -- out of curiosity, how would you describe the characteristics of Quark that make it more convenient for lighting the map?

[NIN-IceFox]

And some screens of progress on my first map thanks to trenchbroom

Sayyy, that actually looks legit. Nice work!

BTW -- out of curiosity, how would you describe the characteristics of Quark that make it more convenient for lighting the map?

Thanks! I worked some late hours fulltime trying to get that one near done! I'll finish it soon once I figure a few more things out.

As for Quark, well it still beats text editing, but learning Quark in my mind is harder than learning to map itself! That's why it's all I use it for is to apply brush properties and so on since Trench Broom still doesn't support Quake 2 officially. I hope it does soon because that would make things worlds easier yet again for me! Quark is unwieldy and hard to control even in 3d mode compared to TrenchBroom. And not very accurate when trying to click brushes, sometimes even instead of selecting what's in front of me in selects something somewhere else and stops working! Other than Qoole though because of accuracy problems, what other editor would any of you recommend best for the sole job of applying surface flags etc? I just want simple as possible. I'm going to check out radient etc and see if that's better, been a long time since I looked at that one but I know it was still difficult.

[[BTF] Reflex]

But I wish the plane clip would optionally do a "split". I.e. if it can clip a brush, it could clearly split a brush (instead of deleting the clipped part.)

Dunno if this was cleared up,  but I was messing around with this for an hour last night to get the feel for the controls.

The clipping tool can do a split.  Ctrl+enter toggles between the three options.


 

[quadz]

The clipping tool can do a split.  Ctrl+enter toggles between the three options.

Yeah, thanks -- was indeed pointed out to me earlier.

[NIN-IceFox]

http://leray.proboards.com/thread/3535/space-elevator-kitsune-valley-bsp?page=1&scrollTo=26444

Finalized my map at last after a bit of a development break from it, I'd still have nothing if it weren't thanks to TrenchBroom!

And as like the alpha version before, it's featured now on whale at 74.86.171.203:27910 and enter "vote map kitsune" in the console

[ImperiusDamian]

Sweet!

[.l-dot]

Apologies, but I would like to experiment with creating maps for Q2 WODX.

I was unable to find a tutorial for creating a demo map (start to finish).

How do I preview a map I have build.
Do I have to compile it first?
How to launch Q2 to see that map?
Launch Engine Parameters?

Steps to compile and run?

Thank you.

{edit} Nevermind, the information I needed was found in the "manual" directory of TrenchBroom.

[bvughtoonice]

Join the mapping / level design discord to chat with other mappers n learn from some of the best!

https://discord.gg/7jBaZf3