So what if you had records to listen to?

[fdrjk]

so a good turntable setup doesnt really mean higher fidelity than a cd, but just means that youre listening to artifacts put into the music caused by a vinyl record that make it sound better to the ears?

i didnt know that. thats p cool

[|iR|Focalor]

It means you're fucking retarded if you can't comprehend the words I'm saying. And I don't apologize for that, because now it's YOU being the asshole.

Play it on a CD. Play it on a record. Doesn't matter. Everything you listen to sounds like shit anyway  because it's butt-rock and pussy-tronic sissy-fag tunes that belong on any homos "Music To Suck Dick To" compilation.

 

Fuck this place.

[fdrjk]

i was being serious. i didnt know that 

[Krlll Mule]

I had no idea this could become such a touchy subject! 

Try different formats and decide for yourself what you like or just stick with what you like now....I don't mind differing opinions and information. As an old guy I used to work with would say: "If everybody liked the same thing, there would only be one thing".   

[quadz]

so a good turntable setup doesnt really mean higher fidelity than a cd, but just means that youre listening to artifacts put into the music caused by a vinyl record that make it sound better to the ears?

That's what I get out of reading about the physical limitations of the medium.

Again, to use the amplifier analogy: If it were possible to build a 100% distortion-free amplifier, then there would be zero difference between listening to playback through a transistor amp or a tube amp. (Obviously here we'd have to exclude the cases where one deliberately desires to drive the amplifier to distortion levels, such as with a guitar amp.)

In other words, all amplification technologies introduce distortion, even in cases where it's not desired. In terms of what we hear, we only care about the differences between these various technologies because they each color the sound in different ways.

Physical limits and distortion characteristics of vinyl are described here: http://www.head-fi.org/t/679915/how-to-record-encode-the-highest-quality-digital-audio-from-pristine-tape-and-vinyl-source#post_9773488

Nifty GIF collection explaining how stereo tracks are recorded on vinyl: http://www.vinylrecorder.com/stereo.html

[|iR|Focalor]

i was being serious. i didnt know that 

So you're gonna sit there and claim that all the popping, hissing, and static shit on a record sounds better to the ear than NOT having to hear that shit? No, you're not being serious, you're being a smart ass. If you're really being serious, then next time you wanna listen to music, do it on CD and then increase your enjoyment of it by creating a bunch of noise by banging pots and pans together and running a shop vac and a lawnmower... since added noise makes things sound better.

so a good turntable setup doesnt really mean higher fidelity than a cd, but just means that youre listening to artifacts put into the music caused by a vinyl record that make it sound better to the ears?

That's what I get out of reading about the physical limitations of the medium.

Again, to use the amplifier analogy: If it were possible to build a 100% distortion-free amplifier, then there would be zero difference between listening to playback through a transistor amp or a tube amp. (Obviously here we'd have to exclude the cases where one deliberately desires to drive the amplifier to distortion levels, such as with a guitar amp.)

In other words, all amplification technologies introduce distortion, even in cases where it's not desired. In terms of what we hear, we only care about the differences between these various technologies because they each color the sound in different ways.

There's a difference though. When you're using a distorted valve guitar amp, you're specifically doing it because the distortion has it's own unique attractive tone that you can't accurately achieve with a solid state amp. And that tone IS the music itself. When artists used to release their records on vinyl or tape, they didn't do it specifically because vinyl or tape created an overall tone that colored the WHOLE RECORDING a certain way. They did it because that was the medium available at the time. The "artifacts" and noise produced by the medium were completely unintentional, which is why when digital and CD's became big, they all remastered and rereleased everything to remove that garbage and clean it up.

This is my entire point. You ain't SUPPOSED to hear that shit! CD removes most it from the equation. What format of playback gear a person uses is completely immaterial in regards to the medium itself, it's capabilities, and how it would be ranked from best to worst among other mediums in regards to ACTUAL MEASURABLE SOUND QUALITY. From that perspective, the fact remains in granite for all to see: CD is better than vinyl.

[quadz]

There's a difference though. When you're using a distorted valve guitar amp, you're specifically doing it because the distortion has it's own unique attractive tone that you can't accurately achieve with a solid state amp. And that tone IS the music itself. When artists used to release their records on vinyl or tape, they didn't do it specifically because vinyl or tape created an overall tone that colored the WHOLE RECORDING a certain way. They did it because that was the medium available at the time. The "artifacts" and noise produced by the medium were completely unintentional, which is why when digital and CD's became big, they all remastered and rereleased everything to remove that garbage and clean it up.

Yes, but this was the entire valve vs. solid state argument I was raised with.

My dad is a (now retired) analog hardware engineer, physics major, hi-fi enthusiast. Built his own tube amps, preamps, speaker cabinets. Subscribed to various hi-fi magazines, but laughed at the various pseudo-scientific claims and mumbo jumbo that filled many of the articles.

But the debate that was all the rage in hi-fi circles was among folks trying to REMOVE all distortion from their systems. That's why I excluded cases like guitar amps in my prior post where players are deliberately driving the amps to distort.

Amps always produce some distortion even when it's not wanted.

The valve vs. solid state debate among hi-fi types was about sitting in a listening room and A/B comparing various amps and preamps, and claiming the tube amps made their Tchaikovsky sound warmer / richer / more musical, and a whole other host of adjectives typically found in hi-fi and wine tasting circles.

So that's the debate I grew up with, similar to LP vs. digital, but even more subtle in terms of the degree the sound is being 'colored' by the technology.

[|iR|Focalor]

My dad is a (now retired) analog hardware engineer, physics major, hi-fi enthusiast. Built his own tube amps, preamps, speaker cabinets.

Is he an EL34 man, or a 6L6 man?

Amps always produce some distortion even when it's not wanted.

I think that really all depends on the amp itself, though, doesn't it? Guitar amps are designed to have preamp sections that juice the signal past normal levels so that once it reaches the poweramp section, it's already distorted heavily. Whereas with normal audio equipment, such distortion is created and mitigated in much the same fashion. When you're getting distortion OUT, you decrease the input volume from the source. And then you also have distortion problems that can come from speakers vibrating past their frequency of normal operation, like when you have a speaker that's too small to handle the power and high volumes you're trying to get out of it. I think I read something about how that was basically how Les Paul invented the overdriven guitar sound, by blasting the living shit out of speakers too small to handle the power. I think he also experimented with shredding speaker cones with a razor blade in certain patterns too. I don't imagine that worked too well.

Always? What do you mean by that?

[quadz]

Is he an EL34 man, or a 6L6 man?

Haha. I'd guess 6L6 for full-range amplification purposes.

Always? What do you mean by that?

The short story: "Fundamentally, all electronic devices (e.g. vacuum tubes, bipolar transistors, MOS transistors) exhibit some nonlinear behavior."

The very long story: http://www.eetimes.com/document.asp?doc_id=1274876

[|iR|Focalor]

Is he an EL34 man, or a 6L6 man?

Haha. I'd guess 6L6 for full-range amplification purposes.

That... is the correct answer. Your father is obviously a wonderful man.

I'm not knocking EL34's though. They're good in their own right too. From what I know about them, they distort smoother and easier at lower wattages, so they're a better choice for smaller amps. I used to have a little Peavey Bravo 112 all-tube combo that sounded fucking killer, and it had EL34's or something in that family. But when you want SUPER LOUD AND FUCKING OBNOXIOUS, something that's truly gonna give the sperms in your nuts shaken baby syndrome before they're even born, you gotta go with a big fat 100watter and some 6L6's for the 'Murican metal sound.

[Idioplex]

Well I admit that I stand incredibly corrected. 
And I realized what I said earlier came off as a bit ignorant... When I said vinyl was superior to digital in every way, I was speaking more on the actual listening experience rather than actual sound quality (so it's not superior in every way. Oops.) Anyways, about the tape: I actually started looking into the science behind all of that recently, and in the mass influx of information I gathered, I guess I also picked up some bull shit.    Thanks for the correction.

I have found vinyl to be easier on the ears overall though, whether it's of a higher quality or not. And would I sound totally pretentious if I were to say that the "roar and rumble" of vinyl and the wavering and slight hissing on cassettes added character to the recordings? I'm not the type that deems all things digital as soulless and inferior, but I do think the imperfections of vinyl and cassette are able to enhance the listening experience. I've been dabbling in ambient/drone and noise cassette releases and I think that the shortcomings of the  format compliment the general atmosphere in a really interesting way.

[|iR|Focalor]

I never said I hate vinyl records or anything. I love em. I own tons, and I put them on and listen to them every once in a while when I'm doing stuff around the house. I don't have an 8-track player though. My folks had one at one point, but it never got handed down to me. It could've been... had I wanted it to. It found it's way into the trash in one of the moves. And I ain't upset about it at all. I remember the kinda shit they had in the collection of tapes. It was maybe about 15 or 20 tapes in all, a pretty small collection I guess, and it was all a bunch of total CRAP (in my opinion). Just a bunch of pussy-assed light rock and easy listening bullshit like Harry Chapin and Three Dog Night. No thanks. Just not my idea of fun.

I remember my mom's dad who died back in the 90's. He was renting the house he lived in, so after he died, we had to move pretty fast to clean all his shit outta there, which was a pretty depressing task. I remember he had a decent old 8-track deck and record player stereo system with those big dark woodgrain speaker cabs like everybody had to have back in those days. All the shit he had was total crap too. A bunch of fucking disco bullshit. And then my cousin went and stuck on the god damn Saturday Night Fever soundtrack for us to listen to while we cleaned things out and divied up his belongings. I dunno what made me cry more, looking at all the pictures of my grandpa and missing him, or having to listen to the god damn BeeGee's on a neverending loop ALL DAY LONG.

[Krlll Mule]

Hey, the Three Dogs had something to offer.....them and one of my old 8 track players had some moments.

I had a 66 Mustang with "Mind Blower " speakers and an 8 track. That sucker sounded great.
I especially remember Zappa's Zoot Allures with "Black Napkins", and Judas Priests "Stained Class" as some of the best sounding. Tape>vinyl>digital.   

Thanks for all the interesting opinions and information.

[fdrjk]

my dad has a huuuuge ass vinyl collection in this big ass military case that his grandfather gave him.

most of it is shit that ive never heard of in my life, but he also has the original vinyl version of thick as a brick which is cooool as shit. ive never listened to any of them tho.

[|iR|Focalor]

Hey, the Three Dogs had something to offer.....

....Judas Priest....

Well, they can keep it. I remember back in the 80's, my mom had a Best of Three Dog Night cassette that she'd played over and over in the tape deck in the old 4-door Chevrolet Celebrity sedan. If it wasn't Three Dog Night, it was the Four Tops. If it wasn't the Four Tops, it was Marvin Gaye. If it wasn't Marvin Gaye... then it was probably back to Three Dog Night. Luckily, a little later, she got turned on to Eric Clapton when he came out with his Journeyman album in 89 or 90. That wasn't too bad. It wasn't great, but I could stand it. And as soon as she found out she liked that album, then she started listening to older stuff from him like Slowhand and Backless, which was much better.

I've kinda been trying to find all the old Priest albums on vinyl. Not so easy to do around these parts. People just don't turn loose of them I guess. Anything before Hellbent For Leather is hard to find. I managed to come across a pretty ragged copy of Sin After Sin in a thrift shop in Decatur GA years ago. It's warped though. Only paid 3 or 4 bucks for it, so not too bad.

Knockin' out the ol' dirty dirty in the backseat to this'n, were ya?
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