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The NSA always follows the guidelines when eavesdropping on calls

NSA never listens to a call without a court order
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Author Topic: National Security Admin - Data Collection  (Read 7777 times)

Offline Sgt. Dick

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National Security Admin - Data Collection
« on: June 08, 2013, 08:02:47 AM »
This is from an article I saw today.

The National Security Agency has been collecting the phone records of hundreds of millions of Americans each day, creating a database through which it can learn whether terror suspects have been in contact with people in the U.S. It also was disclosed this week that the NSA has been gathering all Internet usage audio, video, photographs, emails and searches from nine major U.S. Internet providers, including Microsoft and Google, in hopes of detecting suspicious behavior that begins overseas.

"Nobody is listening to your telephone calls," Obama assured the nation after two days of reports that many found unsettling. What the government is doing, he said, is digesting phone numbers and the durations of calls, seeking links that might "identify potential leads with respect to folks who might engage in terrorism."

If there's a hit, he said, "if the intelligence community then actually wants to listen to a phone call, they've got to go back to a federal judge, just like they would in a criminal investigation."
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Offline |iR|Focalor

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Re: National Security Admin - Data Collection
« Reply #1 on: June 08, 2013, 10:23:16 AM »
"Nobody is listening to your telephone calls," Obama assured the nation

He isn't lying about that. Then again, he's not being entirely honest either. Lying by omission is still kinda lying even though it's isn't actually lying. NOBODY is listening to your calls... because nobody has to. A computer does that for them. They have voice recognition software that flags calls containing certain words and phrases. What you probably won't hear him speaking about is the fact that while noBODY is listening to your phone calls, they are still more than likely recording parts of them, if not ALL of them. Normally, federal agencies have certain protocols for recording telephone calls where they are only allowed to listen to and record the first minute or two of the call if they do not have the proper warrant. Unless they hear anything that gives them probable cause to continue recording (things being said about illegal activities), they have to stop recording and listening. They are allowed to check back in on the same continued call after a certain period of time and for a certain period of time to see if anything illegal is being discussed. However, I'm pretty sure national and international security concerns allows them a loophole to disregard the normal protocols that normal federal agencies would be required to follow. These guys are NOT a normal federal agency. They function on an international level, which gives them a lot more freedom to do whatever they want.

What nobody in Washington is gonna tell the American people though is that they very very VERY rarely have opportunities to eavesdrop on actual terrorists because they've long since wised up to counterintelligence methods. They've stopped using telephones and emails to pass vital information around. They do it all face to face and person to person now, either with memorized messages or with handwritten notes or with encoded messages on CD's that are viewed on computers never connected to any network.
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Offline haunted

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Re: National Security Admin - Data Collection
« Reply #2 on: June 08, 2013, 11:15:19 AM »
It's a matter of principle like I said in the other thread. Obama's assurances are premised on the fact that government institutions are not making mistakes or abusing their power, which I disagree with entirely. As a matter of principle, we should assume that they do both of these things, just from experience(*cough* IRS) and the fact that this assumption empowers us as citizens under the constitution.

But there's another part of me that obviously doesn't give a rat's ass whether they cross-reference against our metadata of sent/received calls or not to known terrorist phone numbers...

I'm unsure about a lot of things in politics these days, and feel content being so. We may not know the full context of this issue until 3 months from now... Didn't vote for now.

Oh and not that this matters being that they're basically synonyms, but it's Agency and not Administration ;)

Offline |iR|Focalor

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Re: National Security Admin - Data Collection
« Reply #3 on: June 09, 2013, 12:44:28 AM »
http://news.yahoo.com/since-9-11-life-surveillance-made-easier-150108779.html

And this is just a drop in the bucket. They do more than this. Wanna drop off the grid? Paranoid that the government and country you've pledged allegiance to since a schoolboy will eventually fuck you for no good reason and want to do everything possible to keep them from finding you? Prepare to do a lot of crazy shit. You can spend nothing but paper cash on any small purchases, and maybe even spend a little more than the price tag on the item as a "tip" in order to make the purchase off the books and untraceable, but even the routes of paper cash can be somewhat traced by the numbers printed on them. There are ways of covering your tracks as much as possible and obscuring the origins of your cash which in turn makes the later destinations of the cash irrelevant, but it's so much work that it's really only worth the effort if you actually have something to hide and aren't just an innocent nobody trying to remain invisible from the eye of Big Brother for your own peace of mind.

Does that still sound doable for the innocent average joe? Here's the part where your bubble bursts. In order to have money, you have to work for it. Thanks to the IRS, it's virtually ALWAYS illegal to make enough money to live on by any method that isn't reported to the IRS. So if you have the cash money to make it possible to live a daily life off the grid, you've done something illegal to obtain that money, either by trading in illegal goods and services or by at the very least not reporting the income from trading in totally legal goods and services for taxing.

The average joe can NEVER be completely invisible in this day and age. The best he can hope for is to take steps to determine to what degree is he visible.

After that, the only other option is to literally become someone else and hide in plain sight. Move far away, obtain fake ID's, drastically change your appearance, cut all ties with family and friends. Then hope at some point you're never forced into a situation in which you have to give up fingerprints. If they really feel the need to do so, authorities can search DMV databases for fingerprint matches long after the person goes missing or is considered dead. Dead people don't just drop out of their system. That data is far too important to delete for just that reason.

Not trying to impress anyone with this info either. If you read, listen, and learn enough, anyone can discover these facts. It's just astounding to consider just how small this world has become so god damned quick. Our entire lives and existences have been converted to data stored in computers all across the country and the world. We try so hard to convince ourselves that we're all special individuals with a purpose in life, but it's become harder and harder to deny the ugly truth that we're really nothing more than faceless expendable fucking numbers on paper to those who have found themselves at the top of the heap. 50 years ago people used to have to keep a daily diary in order for others to be able to fully peer into their day-to-day lives. In another 50 years, they'll toss the diary in the trash and just start reading our archived facebook pages, financial statements, and gas station receipts.
« Last Edit: June 09, 2013, 01:17:00 AM by |iR|Focalor »
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Offline haunted

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Re: National Security Admin - Data Collection
« Reply #4 on: June 09, 2013, 04:09:08 PM »
I'm surprised you didn't mention this:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Radio-frequency_identification

(in particular about passports)
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Offline The Happy Friar

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Re: National Security Admin - Data Collection
« Reply #5 on: June 09, 2013, 06:42:25 PM »
Safest way to send info you don't want anyone to know about is the US mail.  Send it registered and it won't get lost, personally checked at every dropoff and NOBODY will mess with it.  The mail still has legal protections against government activity like this.  I'm sure they'll be eliminated when it's realized that a 46 cent forever stamp has better security then a $600 cell phone though.  Think about it: you can buy a stamp, in cash, put it in a random mail drop box without seeing an actual person, from any location in the USA.  You can't get that type of antimony with cell, internet, etc.  Even if a barcode is placed on it (IE a parcel), the barcode only is tracking the package, it has no info about the one who sent it or where it's going.

Heck, even if you mail something illegal, they can't check unless you're notified ahead of time they'll check (IE international mail, media mail, books, for the deaf/blind) or they have hard evidence (IE you told them it's illegal, funny smells, powders & the like).  Then the person at the office/carrier STILL can't check it, they've got to call the Postal Inspectors.  The FBI/state/local PD can't (legally) open it until the Postal Inspector says it's ok.
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Offline R. Hayabusa

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Re: National Security Admin - Data Collection
« Reply #6 on: June 09, 2013, 07:50:04 PM »
Safest way to send info you don't want anyone to know about is the US mail.  Send it registered and it won't get lost, personally checked at every dropoff and NOBODY will mess with it.  The mail still has legal protections against government activity like this.  I'm sure they'll be eliminated when it's realized that a 46 cent forever stamp has better security then a $600 cell phone though.  Think about it: you can buy a stamp, in cash, put it in a random mail drop box without seeing an actual person, from any location in the USA.  You can't get that type of antimony with cell, internet, etc.  Even if a barcode is placed on it (IE a parcel), the barcode only is tracking the package, it has no info about the one who sent it or where it's going.

Heck, even if you mail something illegal, they can't check unless you're notified ahead of time they'll check (IE international mail, media mail, books, for the deaf/blind) or they have hard evidence (IE you told them it's illegal, funny smells, powders & the like).  Then the person at the office/carrier STILL can't check it, they've got to call the Postal Inspectors.  The FBI/state/local PD can't (legally) open it until the Postal Inspector says it's ok.


only for the time being. However the USPS is slowly being phased out, as they are being bankrupted for paying too much in pension funds. USPS literally pay overages in billions, (which is highly unnecessary) on the beck and call of government policy. so once they get phased out , the monopolized companies that are left, can implement further controls of the mail. (Fedex and UPS). you won't be able to mail anything with it being checked out. you'll see the Meme's of a TSA-like  organization groping the mail.




http://connect.freedomworks.org/news/view/361634?destination=node%2F361634%3Fsource%3Dtweet-news_article
« Last Edit: June 09, 2013, 07:54:57 PM by Golgo13 »
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Offline M1SERY

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Re: National Security Admin - Data Collection
« Reply #7 on: June 17, 2013, 11:48:10 AM »
 Would be surprised how many boxes shipped fed-ex smell like weed and nobody cares. I bet i deliver contraband 2-5 times a month, and that is just the packages I can smell. Very Very little security involved. If the box doesn't come open during transit then nobody cares whats in it. Spray foam inside of box and ship 12lbs to the wrong address. NOBODY CARES
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Offline R. Hayabusa

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Re: National Security Admin - Data Collection
« Reply #8 on: June 17, 2013, 06:29:52 PM »
yes i know the policy of the shipping companies. However if they get slapped with a fine by some government regulation, i'm sure their tune will change unless they have some real muscle in lawyers.
« Last Edit: June 17, 2013, 06:42:26 PM by Golgo13 »
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Offline quadz

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Re: National Security Admin - Data Collection
« Reply #9 on: June 18, 2013, 01:00:23 AM »
Thought this was an interesting perspective:

Quote
Excerpt from: Bruce Schneier: Trading Privacy for Convenience

The current surveillance state is a result of a government/corporate partnership, and our willingness to give up privacy for convenience.

If the government demanded that we all carry tracking devices 24/7, we would rebel. Yet we all carry cell phones. If the government demanded that we deposit copies of all of our messages to each other with the police, we'd declare their actions unconstitutional. Yet we all use Gmail and Facebook messaging and SMS. If the government demanded that we give them access to all the photographs we take, and that we identify all of the people in them and tag them with locations, we'd refuse. Yet we do exactly that on Flickr and other sites.

Ray Ozzie is right when he said that we got what we asked for when we told the government we were scared and that they should do whatever they wanted to make us feel safer. But we also got what we asked for when we traded our privacy for convenience, trusting these corporations to look out for our best interests.

And while I happen to mostly agree with Bruce Schneier's stance on Government Secrets and the Need for Whistleblowers, I think Thomas Friedman also makes a worthwhile point here:

Quote
Excerpt from: Thomas Friedman: Blowing a Whistle

[...] what I cherish most about America is our open society, and I believe that if there is one more 9/11 — or worse, an attack involving nuclear material — it could lead to the end of the open society as we know it. If there were another 9/11, I fear that 99 percent of Americans would tell their members of Congress: “Do whatever you need to do to, privacy be damned, just make sure this does not happen again.” That is what I fear most.

That is why I’ll reluctantly, very reluctantly, trade off the government using data mining to look for suspicious patterns in phone numbers called and e-mail addresses — and then have to go to a judge to get a warrant to actually look at the content under guidelines set by Congress — to prevent a day where, out of fear, we give government a license to look at anyone, any e-mail, any phone call, anywhere, anytime.

Which incidentally reminded me of a political cartoon I'd seen awhile back:




Of course, a key concern would be whether we have already passed the point where government has to "go to a judge to get a warrant to actually look at the content."

Statements made by Edward Snowden in a recent crowd-sourced interview seemed to imply the government is collecting the metadata at "widest allowable aperture", but that if they decide to focus on you specifically, it's trivial for them to begin collecting any particular data they wish:

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2013/jun/17/edward-snowden-nsa-files-whistleblower?commentpage=1

If they really are limiting their collection to "allowable metadata" until targeting someone, that would be a bit different than the government collecting and storing the full global firehose of data indiscriminately, and being able to reference it at any time.

Not sure where the truth really lies though...


:exqueezeme:
« Last Edit: June 18, 2013, 01:27:17 AM by quadz »
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Offline |iR|Focalor

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Re: National Security Admin - Data Collection
« Reply #10 on: June 18, 2013, 02:00:01 AM »
http://news.yahoo.com/north-korea-says-surveillance-leaks-prove-u-kingpin-061855194.html

Irony defined: When the North Korean governments propaganda machine tells it's people that the US government is spying on it's citizens.

What a wacky world we live in. :D

Offline R. Hayabusa

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Re: National Security Admin - Data Collection
« Reply #11 on: June 20, 2013, 09:39:27 AM »

<span data-s9e-mediaembed="youtube" style="display:inline-block;width:100%;max-width:640px"><span style="display:block;overflow:hidden;position:relative;padding-bottom:56.25%"><iframe allowfullscreen="" scrolling="no" style="background:url(https://i.ytimg.com/vi/V8vXrqHurTc/hqdefault.jpg) 50% 50% / cover;border:0;height:100%;left:0;position:absolute;width:100%" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/V8vXrqHurTc"></iframe></span></span><br /><a href="http://www.youtube.com/v/V8vXrqHurTc&amp;feature=player_embedded" target="_blank" class="new_win">http://www.youtube.com/v/V8vXrqHurTc&amp;feature=player_embedded</a>

Offline |iR|Focalor

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Re: National Security Admin - Data Collection
« Reply #12 on: June 20, 2013, 10:09:57 AM »
HAHAHA! I hope you don't find anything deep and meaningful in that little video clip. It's indicative of NOTHING AT ALL other than the fact that she is stupid. And while she's a fucking airhead,... so what though. Beauty queens are pretty so that they don't HAVE to be intelligent. They spend time learning how to be pretty, and all the time it takes to do that leaves little time to learn anything unimportant to their own lives... like critical thinking skills.
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Offline R. Hayabusa

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Re: National Security Admin - Data Collection
« Reply #13 on: June 20, 2013, 10:14:32 AM »
HAHAHA! I hope you don't find anything deep and meaningful in that little video clip. It's indicative of NOTHING AT ALL other than the fact that she is stupid. And while she's a fucking airhead,... so what though. Beauty queens are pretty so that they don't HAVE to be intelligent. They spend time learning how to be pretty, and all the time it takes to do that leaves little time to learn anything unimportant to their own lives... like critical thinking skills.

it wasn't presented as "evidence". more of an example how society has become laced with complacency, ignorance and lazyness.

Offline |iR|Focalor

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Re: National Security Admin - Data Collection
« Reply #14 on: June 20, 2013, 10:51:07 AM »
Well hopefully it'll make you feel better to know that SHE represents only a very microscopic portion of the population. It's a portion so small that you might as well not even consider it at all. And when you DON'T consider it, don't worry about them getting upset over it, because their job is to look pretty and sell products, not to have opinions. :D
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