Author Topic: Current Politics & History Only Thread  (Read 188489 times)

Offline Punk_FAS

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Re: Current Politics & History Only Thread
« Reply #900 on: February 16, 2020, 10:30:11 AM »
When Clinton was in office, SNL made fun of him. How did they do it though? He was the dopey but loveable somewhat flawed character. And how did they make fun of Bush comparitively? He was the dumber-than-dogshit bumbling evil mastermind type.

Oh, give me a break. Comparatively, at least from the way they spoke, Bush was a bumbling, dumber-than-dogshit personality. Clinton, like him or not, was a fantastic orator and exuded confidence and competence. What you said reads as if there were minimal differences between their two personas and SNL operated solely from a "the left is great, the right sucks" angle. That's simply not true.

Mexicans need to be big boys and girls and handle their shit.

And until that happens, those trying to come here should just stay instead and die, right? I read an article the other day that said [a significant number of] people that have been sent back in the past number of years have died (I believe murdered/killed) since being sent back to whichever country they were returned to.
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Offline Punk_FAS

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Re: Current Politics & History Only Thread
« Reply #901 on: February 16, 2020, 10:54:44 AM »
Nope. As it turns out, that qualifies someone more than anything else to holding a position of power. Turns out that the most wealthy entrepreneurs in the world tend to be high functioning sociopaths and psychopaths. If you wanna win, sometimes you have to be willing to kill everything that isn't you. And part of being a successful wealthy entrepreneur is knowing when to smile and when to kill, and realizing that you're gonna be doing WAY more smiling than killing, so be a good persuasive actor. (Basically reiterating Quadz' point here.)
Entirely misguided. It may increase the odds someone gains a position of power, but that has nothing to do with whether or not they're qualified to hold that position. Being wealthy is not necessarily a sign of success. Trump inherited the equivalent of over $400 million from his father.

Do you know how much easier it is to make lots of money when you start with lots of money? A home pops up for sale for $2 million; you know it's worth $3 million. If you can pay cash for such a purchase, but have to wait around for six months or so to sell it, you've just made $1 million dollars in six months' time. Wow, I must be a genius because I made a million dollars in six months. No, I just had the money to make large investments which often have equivalently large payouts.

"Winning" doesn't mean you're a good leader. Narcissists do not have real friends - they have inferiors that cater to them that they find useful. Narcissists have no qualms about stabbing those who have helped them in the back if it will advance their own agenda. Narcissists have an irrational sense of self importance, entitlement, and a skewed view of their own knowledge. A narcissist is the last person you want leading you. Yes, they get there because they don't follow the same rules normal human beings do. This ends up eroding trust, creating resentment, and eventually things will crash and burn. Again, that's not at all who you want leading you, particularly not who you want making decisions for how 320 million people live their lives or who has the power over the most powerful country and military on the planet.
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Offline Punk_FAS

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Re: Current Politics & History Only Thread
« Reply #902 on: February 16, 2020, 11:03:29 AM »
Watch this short video (about one minute long) of an interview with Richard Branson (billionaire CEO/founder of Virgin Group, Virgin Atlantic, etc.) sharing a story about getting an invitation to have lunch with Trump.

"Donald Trump spent the entirety of a two-hour lunch vowing to 'spend the rest of his life destroying five people' who had declined to help him."

Start around the 1:00 mark for the relevant parts. Watch that and tell me that sounds like someone describing the mind of a stable person. That's textbook narcissist thinking. Trump believes everyone owes him their unyielding loyalty, yet clearly turns his back on any of his former allies when it appears they're no longer 'winners'.

https://www.cnbc.com/video/2017/10/18/richard-branson-trump-was-fixated-on-mission-to-destroy-people-who-refused-him-a-loan.html
« Last Edit: February 16, 2020, 11:35:38 AM by Punk_FAS »
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Offline |iR|Focalor

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Re: Current Politics & History Only Thread
« Reply #903 on: February 16, 2020, 03:51:53 PM »
...SNL operated solely from a "the left is great, the right sucks" angle. That's simply not true.

They do though. Because Lorne Michaels is a Democrat. It's owned by NBC, and the people who run NBC are Democrats. That's not my opinion, it's fact. If it's not fact,... Obama was President for 8 years. Surely in 8 years, SNL would've had plenty of opportunities to rip into Obama the same way they did with Bush. And yet... they didn't. But that's because Bush is... obviously stupid and evil. And that's why this fucking argument is pointless. We might as well be Catholics and Protestants in North Ireland. ::)

And until that happens, those trying to come here should just stay instead and die, right? I read an article the other day that said [a significant number of] people that have been sent back in the past number of years have died (I believe murdered/killed) since being sent back to whichever country they were returned to.

If your neighbor doesn't pay his bills and skips town, is it reasonable to expect you to cover it?

It sucks but... YES. People die every day. Not my problem.

Narcissists

Sort of. In truth, most of us check certain boxes for antisocial personality disorder and sociopathy. I certainly do. When it comes to certain things and people I have disdain for, I have a lack of empathy that can sometimes morph into total sadism. But then when it comes to family and friends, I'm sometimes quite selfless. I'm not padded room crazy, but I'm not far off, lol. It might be true that I'm only one exceptionally bad day away from going criminally insane. We'll see. There's always tomorrow. :D

I'm not saying it's preferable to have sociopaths and psychopaths as leaders, but that's often how it works out. Turns out sociopaths and psychopaths with narcissistic tendencies think very highly of themselves, and that confidence leads them to have the courage to pursue leadership positions in business, government and organized crime.

And Richard Branson is one. He's fucked over more than a handful of people to get where he's at.

If you don't want a sociopath in power, you're gonna have to elect Jesus Christ or Ghandi.
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Offline haunted

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Re: Current Politics & History Only Thread
« Reply #904 on: February 16, 2020, 04:09:51 PM »
Quote
The democrat party being hijacked isn't up for dispute and there's two sides you can take. 1. I'm ok with it because I hate trump so bad, or 2. This is unacceptable, the democrat party needs to go back to the drawing board because we're not the party of AOC and the young Turks.

 :???:

That's the real question, and it's always dodged. Clearly you think trump is so incompetent that you're going with #1, but I don't think you fully grasp what that entails. Too focused on trump.
« Last Edit: February 16, 2020, 04:37:29 PM by haunted »
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Offline quadz

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Re: Current Politics & History Only Thread
« Reply #905 on: February 16, 2020, 06:35:52 PM »
Do you know how much easier it is to make lots of money when you start with lots of money?

Most lottery winners don't create global brands.

One need not like Trump's brand, to notice uncommon talent at work.


"Winning" doesn't mean you're a good leader. Narcissists do not have real friends - they have inferiors that cater to them that they find useful. Narcissists have no qualms about stabbing those who have helped them in the back if it will advance their own agenda. Narcissists have an irrational sense of self importance, entitlement, and a skewed view of their own knowledge. A narcissist is the last person you want leading you. Yes, they get there because they don't follow the same rules normal human beings do. This ends up eroding trust, creating resentment, and eventually things will crash and burn. Again, that's not at all who you want leading you, particularly not who you want making decisions for how 320 million people live their lives or who has the power over the most powerful country and military on the planet.

I find this style of hypothetical similar to the earlier, "what if Trump's personality might mean he could be easily bamboozled by Putin?" line of analogical reasoning.

We have decades of data on how Trump performs in a business context, and nearly a full term worth of data as to how Trump performs as President.

At this point I anticipate he'll continue in a similar manner.

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Offline quadz

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Re: Current Politics & History Only Thread
« Reply #906 on: February 16, 2020, 07:20:24 PM »
A narcissist is the last person you want leading you.

P.S. not wishing to engage in 'whataboutery' (by continuing to bring up prior administrations) I'll offer this merely as an aside.

But if ever there were a well-researched portrait of deep seated narcissism and sociopathy, it might be this 1999 essay (short book) by Christopher Hitchens, No One Left To Lie To.



This was a criticism at the time from the left.

If one truly believes a narcissist to be "the last person you want leading you", this book is probably required reading.


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Offline Punk_FAS

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Re: Current Politics & History Only Thread
« Reply #907 on: February 16, 2020, 09:11:32 PM »
We have decades of data on how Trump performs in a business context . . .

How many times did his father bail him out? His father gave him the equivalent of over 400 million dollars (over the course of his life). That's no lottery winnings, and plus he had his father's considerable successes, and support team, behind him to help make it look like he was the brain of everything (not remotely comparable to Joe-Schmo lottery winner). I'm not saying Trump knows literally nothing, but the way he goes to great lengths (having his attorneys threaten lawsuits, preemptively, to anyone who would leak info) to obscure any concrete facts surrounding his finances (taxes), or educational past (school records), it certainly seems like he's someone who wants to maintain the appearance of success at all costs, without necessarily having it to the degree he claims. Who does he owe money to?

What are you referring to btw? His namesake being on lots of things? He's made a big name for himself. Is he actually respected in the business world? I posted a video about Richard Brandon just a few comments ago shedding light into who he actually is.

You mentioned cognitive dissonance earlier - could you be experiencing any of that with your willingness to look past so many damning things about Trump?

Edit: I'd love to hear what Hitchens thought of Trump. It's too bad Hitchens passed before Trump got into politics.

Edit: Source of the 400+ million figure - https://www.nytimes.com/2018/10/02/us/politics/donald-trump-wealth-fred-trump.html
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Offline quadz

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Re: Current Politics & History Only Thread
« Reply #908 on: February 17, 2020, 12:39:58 AM »
You mentioned cognitive dissonance earlier - could you be experiencing any of that with your willingness to look past so many damning things about Trump?

Hard to know for sure. I wouldn't entirely trust self-diagnosis. (Though I might substitute "unpersuasive anecdotes" in place of "damning things".)

But as far as I can tell I'm not invested in beliefs about Trump that are coming into conflict with what we observe about his performance in office. That sort of conflict - cherished beliefs out of alignment with observed events - is where cognitive dissonance should tend to manifest.

The biggest surprise for me so far was Trump's handling of the recent conflict with Iran. My primary rationale for voting against Trump was my fear that he might egoically blunder us into a foreign war by chest thumping / misreading the adversary / or some sort of unpredictable recklessness. So it was indeed almost a shock to see how effectively Trump navigated that situation, along with Trump's measured response to incidents with Iran in the months leading up to it.


I posted a video about Richard Brandon just a few comments ago shedding light into who he actually is.

Are we sure that an anecdote from a chat show from someone who claims not to know Trump but who met him once over lunch, in a prior decade while Trump was fuming over a failed business venture sheds "more light into who he actually is" than just observing Trump's performance directly?

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Offline Punk_FAS

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Re: Current Politics & History Only Thread
« Reply #909 on: February 17, 2020, 01:03:13 AM »
Are we sure that an anecdote from a chat show from someone who claims not to know Trump but who met him once over lunch, in a prior decade while Trump was fuming over a failed business venture sheds "more light into who he actually is" than just observing Trump's performance directly?

This wasn't a comment said in passing, this was a personal invitation to lunch to a fellow billionaire and then a two-hour raving in detail about what he plans to do to exact revenge on these people that wouldn't loan him money when he had bankruptcies. I guess I'm trying to pile on the evidence that Trump is a narcissist (like, would literally be diagnosed with Narcissistic Personality Disorder, or something similar) with the presumption that anyone who understands what that entails would rightfully be concerned that that is who is in command of this country right now.

Trump also spoke about revenge and getting even on an interview with PBS, with Charlie Rose, also in the 90s. All of this is consistent with an actual narcissist, not someone that is colloquially one. He talks about those who are "disloyal" to him, and he goes on to talk about how even the smallest transgression he judges to be something massive (again, consistent with someone who believes they are so unique and deserving of other's devotion that when that isn't observed, it's like the worse sin imaginable).

Branson blogged about it as well. Here's the Snopes article giving more info on it: https://www.snopes.com/fact-check/richard-branson-trump-revenge/
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Offline quadz

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Re: Current Politics & History Only Thread
« Reply #910 on: February 17, 2020, 01:05:45 AM »
BTW, have you seen some of Trump's older interviews? I found this one interesting (from 1999.) There does (IMHO) seem to have been some cognitive decline in the intervening two decades - but then Trump is approaching his mid 70's now.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bc90K7Kieek

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Offline Punk_FAS

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Re: Current Politics & History Only Thread
« Reply #911 on: February 17, 2020, 01:12:38 AM »
He definitely seemed much sharper back then in those earlier interviews. Here's the Charlie Rose one, in full, from 1992, in case you care to watch.

https://charlierose.com/videos/14730

And here's the part from the above video (via CNN) about him talking about his views on loyalty:


https://www.cnn.com/videos/politics/2017/06/13/trump-rose-loyalty-interview-zw-orig.cnn
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Offline quadz

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Re: Current Politics & History Only Thread
« Reply #912 on: February 17, 2020, 01:45:56 AM »
I guess I'm trying to pile on the evidence that Trump is a narcissist (like, would literally be diagnosed with Narcissistic Personality Disorder, or something similar) with the presumption that anyone who understands what that entails would rightfully be concerned that that is who is in command of this country right now.

What's the "cash value" of this sort of speculation? Does it make testable predictions? When do we reassess its validity?

In my prior post, I described predictions I'd made about how Trump might blunder into foreign wars. And I described how my predictions failed to align with observed reality, requiring me to reassess/adjust/reevaluate.

When does that happen in your calculus?

If Trump serves two terms and ends up doing a pretty good job overall, do you still get to say, "aha! but he was a narcissist all along!"

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Offline haunted

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Re: Current Politics & History Only Thread
« Reply #913 on: February 17, 2020, 05:18:24 AM »

In my prior post, I described predictions I'd made about how Trump might blunder into foreign wars. And I described how my predictions failed to align with observed reality, requiring me to reassess/adjust/reevaluate.

When does that happen in your calculus?

If Trump serves two terms and ends up doing a pretty good job overall, do you still get to say, "aha! but he was a narcissist all along!"

This is just the more sensible approach. I was surprised as well concerning Iran, which is why I felt compelled to look at it like this:

Have y'all simplified what happened in Iran to this extent? Iran claimed victory over the US and is celebrating over the missiles, some sources claiming to have killed 80 US soldiers. They're happy. Trump killed their top general, threw more sanctions at them, and they're happy. He completely swindled them in this deal.

At one point you must start recognizing trump's production and results. I keep seeing the word winning, but that IS sort of what he does. Barr keeps telling him to lay off twitter so he can assist him more politically, but otherwise somehow he continuously outwits his opponents in an unimpressive fashion nearly every damn time. It's mind blowing really, and I don't attribute it to trump's wit but the lack thereof of his opponents who have been playing politics for decades. You can't deny the results.

Punk, I appreciate the discussion but you're sort of cherry-picking what to respond to. Are you content with the democrat party being hijacked by  communist/socialist radicals as long as it achieves the greater good of getting trump out of office? If the answer is yes, what if this strategy had no chance of beating trump in 2020? Would you then still be supportive of this happening to the democrat party? It would be crazy if you're answer is still yes.

Right now the true blue democrats are screaming WTF are you doing to my party? You can't have open borders, and we're not commies!!! So eliminating trump has to be worth it to y'all, but why on earth aren't you at least considering it a tough decision?
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Offline Sgt. Dick

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Re: Current Politics & History Only Thread
« Reply #914 on: February 17, 2020, 06:12:01 AM »
I would love to see this same interview in the US.

A lot of people talk the talk but feel differently when they are asked to take someone in.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JYtbLCa65eA
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