Author Topic: Current Politics & History Only Thread  (Read 174540 times)

Offline Punk_FAS

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Re: Current Politics & History Only Thread
« Reply #885 on: February 15, 2020, 05:38:28 PM »
What happens though is that the left calls people like this racist nazi white supremacists and/or enablers... when they get labeled as such, how do you think they're going to vote in the next election?

I think there's a lot of truth in this. This is where I depart largely from what's considered "the left". I really don't know how much of that group actually represents "the left" though. They're clearly part of the left, but I don't know if they actually speak for the majority.
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Offline haunted

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Re: Current Politics & History Only Thread
« Reply #886 on: February 15, 2020, 06:32:55 PM »
Just because you may not be like that it doesn't mean they're a minority. One's opinion or lack thereof of trump is an ultimatum for a lot of the left.
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Offline quadz

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Re: Current Politics & History Only Thread
« Reply #887 on: February 15, 2020, 07:50:57 PM »

A narcissist would talk about how unfairly they were treated, and how everyone else failed them instead of the other way around - narcissists don't accept their own personal faults

Now that you mention it, the behavior as you describe it does sound familiar.  ;)



But if we're going to engage in speculation, then sure: I wouldn't at all be surprised to find Trump blaming anyone but himself, in a scenario where he were losing.

However, that's not the timeline we appear to be on, at present.

I don't think Trump wants to be in a scenario where he's losing, so I return to my earlier point that I believe he is motivated to be a successful President, if he can be.

And generally speaking, I think we should be unsurprised if a textbook definition of narcissism were insufficient in encompassing all of Trump's motivations.



Democrats can only explain what they see in politics by believing @realDonaldTrump has been "lucky" for several decades in a row, operating on "impulsiveness" alone, while his supporters are hypnotized cult members.
What does this mean? Lucky in what way? I do believe a significant number of his supporters (perhaps a majority) are somewhat hypnotized.

It's alluding to those of Trump's critics who have decided Trump is stupid. And so whenever Trump succeeds at something, well, he must have just gotten lucky — again.

And when such critics happen to be members of the pundit class, one can sometimes watch them visibly struggle with cognitive dissonance while scrambling for any 'explanation' of Trump's success that doesn't require challenging their original premise.

I suppose there's a degree of schadenfreude associated with repeatedly seeing a certain class of pundit get outplayed by a man they're so heavily invested in believing to be an idiot.



Regarding the video: Do you think he simply makes the same joke over and over again? Do you think he's actually the type that defers to actual experts in their respective fields? What his supporters believe is not what's important compared to what he actually believes. Even that seems to fluctuate depending on whichever direction the fair political winds happen to be flowing on any given day.

Not being a mind reader, I try to look at what direction he's headed.

For example, if he says he wants to build a big, beautiful wall that's 40 feet high with a flaming moat and alligators, what I hear is that he wants to improve border security.

And we've already seen him change his plans based on expert advice. For instance, he was told that an opaque wall was counterproductive, because being able to see what's transpiring on the other side was important. So the visual persuasion of the "big, beautiful wall" that was effective during the campaign, has morphed into whatever structure the experts recommend.

One imagines Trump has a long history of delegating to experts, for example architects and engineers constructing his fancy towers; etc.


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Offline ImperiusDamian

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Re: Current Politics & History Only Thread
« Reply #888 on: February 15, 2020, 08:04:12 PM »
Speaking as an immigrant to the US, I don't like his rhetoric. I don't like kids in cages at the border (it's inhumane and children have already died). I don't like the things he says or the things he does. And speaking as a non-Christian I most certainly don't like the evangelical fundamentalism at the heart of the modern-day GOP (Dominionism to be exact; Mike Pence is a self-confessed Dominionist).

Basically, the Trump administration embodies everything that scares the shit out of me. I am concerned for my personal safety and I think were I black, Hispanic or LGBT I would be even more afraid.
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Offline quadz

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Re: Current Politics & History Only Thread
« Reply #889 on: February 15, 2020, 09:20:49 PM »
I don't like kids in cages at the border (it's inhumane and children have already died).

Do the news sources you watch or read provide any context as to the complexity of the problem?

To make it easier to talk about the challenges involved, let's temporarily remove Trump from the issue (we can get back to him later) and look instead back to 2014:







These are of course Obama-era images.

Here's a thread by an immigration lawyer detailing the Obama administration's family separation policies:


https://twitter.com/ImmCivilRights/status/1008902662828511232

Now that we know Saint Obama was doing the same thing, and not just Spooky Trump, maybe we can take the extra step of asking why it's a hard problem?

And what should the Trump administration be doing differently to solve it?

The best long-term solution I'm aware of is to improve border security, so that the majority of economic migrants (as opposed to those genuinely seeking asylum) stop undertaking the dangerous journey, as word gets out that it's no longer feasible to cross the border illegally.

If we don't secure the border, then we continue to have the hard to solve problem of accommodating tens-of-thousands of kids, some of whom have arrived alone, and some who have arrived with dangerous individuals who are not their parents (with some 30% of women reporting being sexually abused during the journey.) In other words, sometimes separation is preferable, sometimes it's not, and there doesn't seem to be a simple solution so long as illegal border crossings continue.

(BTW, just curious, did your preferred source of news only give you the "Spooky Trump" version of the issue?)

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Offline quadz

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Re: Current Politics & History Only Thread
« Reply #890 on: February 15, 2020, 11:10:14 PM »
What happens though is that the left calls people like this racist nazi white supremacists and/or enablers... when they get labeled as such, how do you think they're going to vote in the next election?
I think there's a lot of truth in this. This is where I depart largely from what's considered "the left". I really don't know how much of that group actually represents "the left" though. They're clearly part of the left, but I don't know if they actually speak for the majority.
Just because you may not be like that it doesn't mean they're a minority. One's opinion or lack thereof of trump is an ultimatum for a lot of the left.

The ideology (Critical Social Justice) has its hooks in deep.

It's way past being confined to a few "-studies" courses at university.

K-12 math textbooks:


https://twitter.com/balajis/status/1178807993325899777



Preschool:


https://twitter.com/Deiscirt/status/1225200065003679744



Engineering textbooks:

https://engineering.purdue.edu/ENE/News/newly-published-emengineering-and-social-justice-in-the-university-and-beyondem



U.S. House of Representatives:


https://twitter.com/ConceptualJames/status/1228487560881721344



State Government:


https://twitter.com/ConceptualJames/status/1228759940958969856



Candidate for chairperson of DNC:

"My job is to shut other white people down."


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c-_InohMt_w



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Offline quadz

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Re: Current Politics & History Only Thread
« Reply #891 on: February 16, 2020, 12:02:51 AM »
Basically, the Trump administration embodies everything that scares the shit out of me. I am concerned for my personal safety and I think were I black, Hispanic or LGBT I would be even more afraid.

Had you considered voices outside that pervasive media narrative bubble?

E.g.


https://twitter.com/WoodsonCenter/status/1228376743486148608


https://twitter.com/ZubyMusic/status/1228694297408614402


Also (related to concerns for personal safety)

https://gen.medium.com/ive-been-a-democrat-for-20-years-here-s-what-i-experienced-at-trump-s-rally-in-new-hampshire-c69ddaaf6d07


« Last Edit: February 16, 2020, 12:37:22 AM by quadz »
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Offline |iR|Focalor

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Re: Current Politics & History Only Thread
« Reply #892 on: February 16, 2020, 04:14:57 AM »
Also (related to concerns for personal safety)

https://gen.medium.com/ive-been-a-democrat-for-20-years-here-s-what-i-experienced-at-trump-s-rally-in-new-hampshire-c69ddaaf6d07



Everyone in that picture is white. Let's make that a thing. ...Sorry, Just felt like being "left" for a minute. Felt kinda fuckin' stupid, so I'm gonna stop now.

I honestly believe Trump would be diagnosed as having narcissistic personalty disorder if a qualified psychologist ever got to sit down with him and go through all the criteria, line by line, with him. I feel that alone should disqualify someone from holding such a position of power.

Nope. As it turns out, that qualifies someone more than anything else to holding a position of power. Turns out that the most wealthy entrepreneurs in the world tend to be high functioning sociopaths and psychopaths. If you wanna win, sometimes you have to be willing to kill everything that isn't you. And part of being a successful wealthy entrepreneur is knowing when to smile and when to kill, and realizing that you're gonna be doing WAY more smiling than killing, so be a good persuasive actor. (Basically reiterating Quadz' point here.)

Why Trump?

It's not complicated at all. It's very simple.

Why I voted for him (in order of importance):
  • His last name isn't Clinton. And far more importantly, his first name isn't Hillary. :thumbsup: *I realize that kinda makes me like the left side of the aisle in relation to Trump. They despise his person. Well... I don't love the guy either. He's a dick, he's someone I'd probably punch or ditch in a bad part of town at some point if I hung out with him for one night. But he's the only other option. I wish there were a better one. But there isn't. So fuck it.
  • His theme is "AMERICANS FOR AMERICA". I want to improve America. Despite the fact that he's a pompous douche, his rhetoric about policy resonates with blue collar middle America. We want to see car plants and manufacturing jobs come back. We want to see "Made in the USA" on the shit we buy again. Many left-o's want that too. That's part of the whole liberal douchebag "locally sourced" thing that's all the craze now. And unfortunately, too many douchebags have agreed to pay needlessly jacked up premium prices for such things.  ::) But this is closely related to my next point...
  • His willingness to confront the difficult issue of China/Asian trade practices which has killed off the majority of the US manufacturing. For proof of this, go to any general merchandise retail store in America. Over 90% of the products you'll find were made in China and other Asian countries. Anyone whining about his trade policies is someone drinking the koolaid offered by the Chinese corporations saying, "You get cheap products, we're your friends, don't go changing, baby!" They serve their own interests and only their own, and it's time we thought about OUR place in this relationship... and it's already too late to undo most of the damage done. WE ARE in an abusive relationship with China. "But we get cheap electronics and doo-dads." Kinda like the abused wife saying, "He hits me, but not always and he's rich."
  • Securing the border for ME is NOT about keeping those dirty fucking mexicans outta my country, yeehaw *spits tobacco*. It's about keeping immigration LEGAL and REGULATED, thereby helping to regulate and improve our native economy (the ECONOMY being my biggest concern), having a better means of inhibiting the flow of illegal drugs into this country, and thereby decreasing crime that surrounds and relates to those drugs. I don't know if anyone realizes it, but it's probably the illegal Mexican immigrant community in this country that is keeping Western Union afloat and flourishing. They make wages here and ship the money to people back in Mexico. Money and "value" is flying out the window. Can we do something?
« Last Edit: February 16, 2020, 04:38:08 AM by |iR|Focalor »
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Offline haunted

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Re: Current Politics & History Only Thread
« Reply #893 on: February 16, 2020, 07:25:12 AM »
Boy am I glad I have quadz and focalor to better articulate everything I feel and agree with.  :bananaw00t:

Our grandparents democratic party is gone, and lefties with socialist/communist agendas are fighting for control of the remnants of it. It's why I said to try to keep an open mind punk. No one here is even CLOSE to the stereotypical trump supporter that mainstream media labels anyone who is anti-left.

I talked with a coworker 2 days ago who vehemently and blindly despises trump. He claims trump takes a shit on the constitution 5x a day among other things... we were discussing narrative driven media and I told him that fox news is literally the same thing as msnbc and CNN. He got pissed and disagreed entirely stating that CNN and msnbc were both "very hard" on Obama. I just don't even know what to say to that... I responded uhh, everyone knows what fox news is, but the only use it did have during that time is that they were the ONLY ones that would say ANYTHING bad about Obama... then of course you can further research it to verify and validate any claims yourself. He stood his ground and said no that's not true, they were very hard on obama and fox news is the biggest propaganda machine in the world.

It was really an unpleasant conversation, he was full of anger and resentment for trump and the right. But that kinda sums up the left these days.  I sort of ended it by stating I'd argue that msnbc/cnn is even worse because they have you convinced of all of this somehow.   :lolsign:
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Offline haunted

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Re: Current Politics & History Only Thread
« Reply #894 on: February 16, 2020, 08:07:36 AM »
https://gen.medium.com/ive-been-a-democrat-for-20-years-here-s-what-i-experienced-at-trump-s-rally-in-new-hampshire-c69ddaaf6d07

That was a good read quadz, and that exemplifies why I think trump is going to win by a big margin. The whole reality behind these rallies is nuts. Have we ever seen something like them in our lifetime? Have our parents?
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Offline ImperiusDamian

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Re: Current Politics & History Only Thread
« Reply #895 on: February 16, 2020, 09:04:40 AM »

If we don't secure the border, then we continue to have the hard to solve problem of accommodating tens-of-thousands of kids, some of whom have arrived alone, and some who have arrived with dangerous individuals who are not their parents (with some 30% of women reporting being sexually abused during the journey.) In other words, sometimes separation is preferable, sometimes it's not, and there doesn't seem to be a simple solution so long as illegal border crossings continue.

(BTW, just curious, did your preferred source of news only give you the "Spooky Trump" version of the issue?)



I'm well aware that it happened during Obama's administration too. It wasn't right then, and it's not right now. I'm not one of those people who think Obama was perfect (neither was Hillary, neither was Bill, nor anybody who ever ran for office). He did wrong, but he did right too. Trump's rhetoric quite simply frightens me.

As for solutions, well, short term, my solution would be to build proper centres where these people can be held in humane conditions rather than shoved in cages like animals. Long term, I would have to say, make immigration cheaper and easier (when I did it, I was only able to do it because I had married a US citizen and even so it took six years and cost over $20,000). A great many people who cross the border do so because at this point the cartels have more control over life in Mexico than the government does. These people need help, not caging.

And here's another question. Do we cage people crossing the border from Canada? Or is it just Mexicans we don't want?

EDIT: also, going off on a tangent a bit here, but labelling Democrats as "communist" and "socialist" is just ridiculous hyperbole. The Democratic Party in the US would be considered centre-right almost everywhere else on earth, especially in large swathes of Europe. (Including the UK where I originally hail from.)
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Offline haunted

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Re: Current Politics & History Only Thread
« Reply #896 on: February 16, 2020, 09:39:22 AM »
That's a hefty generalization of the posts concerning socialism, communism, and the democrat party. That is NOT what people are saying here. The two party system presents an equation for power. You take over just 1 party, then you take control of the country. And that is what certain radical folks with socialist and communist agendas are doing with the democrat party. This is a fact. We're not talking about left/right/libertarian/authoritarian quadrants that show Hillary Clinton is in the middle-right but favoring authoritarianism, which is comparable to a republican on the right and favoring authoritarianism (side note, most people are middle favoring libertarianism without even knowing it). The democrat party being hijacked isn't up for dispute and there's two sides you can take. 1. I'm ok with it because I hate trump so bad, or 2. This is unacceptable, the democrat party needs to go back to the drawing board because we're not the party of AOC and the young Turks.

 :???:
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Offline Punk_FAS

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Re: Current Politics & History Only Thread
« Reply #897 on: February 16, 2020, 09:41:33 AM »
labelling Democrats as "communist" and "socialist" is just ridiculous hyperbole

Agreed. It's, at minimum, the yang to the yin that calls all people on the right racists, bigots, etc. "Socialist" has become a boogeyman scare word, particularly so when we actually have many policies in this country now, that most everybody that utilizes them love, which would qualify as socialist policies.
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Offline haunted

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Re: Current Politics & History Only Thread
« Reply #898 on: February 16, 2020, 09:56:30 AM »
That's not what posters are saying either. Everyone's aware and support the many social policies we have and there's an obvious distinction that's been clarified in this thread. It's a massive oversimplification to say "it's not socialism, it's Democratic socialism, we have social programs and policies look at medicare and social security", when the specific examples and quotes are cited.
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Offline |iR|Focalor

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Re: Current Politics & History Only Thread
« Reply #899 on: February 16, 2020, 09:59:41 AM »
He got pissed and disagreed entirely stating that CNN and msnbc were both "very hard" on Obama.

Well that's the point. They were "very hard" on Obama. They "hate, despise, and loathe" Trump. There's a subtle but NOT-AT-FUCKING-ALL-SUBTLE difference there, lol.

SNL is part of the media collective that identifies as "left". When Clinton was in office, SNL made fun of him. How did they do it though? He was the dopey but loveable somewhat flawed character. And how did they make fun of Bush comparitively? He was the dumber-than-dogshit bumbling evil mastermind type. That kinda shit screws its way into the psyches of the sheeple, and it's designed to do so. While some laugh at it as tv comedy, other recognize it as corporate sponsored propaganda.

There's a definite dividing line between left and right media. And if you think about it for a minute... isn't Fox the only right-leaning media on the entire TV dial? I mean obviously the religious networks are gonna be "conservative", but who the hell takes TBN and those people seriously? And overwhelmingly, EVERYTHING ELSE is in favor of left politics. Is that what you could call "fair and balanced"? Nope.

(Gonna attempt to express something here and hopefully sounds coherent when I type it, lol)

And the phrase keeps being repeated, "We're more divided than ever." Sure we are, and the more we repeat that mantra, the more we believe it, and the more true it becomes. And one of the ways we ACTUALLY ARE divided is in how we view this concept of the political narrative and who is the villain of it.

From my perspective:

The left: says the Right is the villain and it must be defeated. The right is racist, backwards in almost every way, and wants to hinder progress at every turn. They are a small group of super-rich elites that have duped their redneck bible thumping subjects into thinking they care about them.

The right: says the Democratic party is incompetent. I'll just leave it at that. Some of them are indeed the redneck bible thumping morons that the left think they are. Others, not so much.

Newly right-leaning me: says the left is becoming the villain, but recognizes that it's not necessarily the Democratic "party" that is the main culprit, it's the left media and corporations that have become the de-facto leadership and voice of the party without even being elected to the position.

And at some point I think people from BOTH SIDES to come to this conclusion. That it's not necessarily the other side of the aisle that is our enemy. It's the corporations and the media who are attempting to subvert the process that is the fucking enemy. The people are supposed to run this place, not these THINGS we call corporations. Their opinions don't fucking matter. They aren't people, and we need to NEVER consider them equal to individuals. US Steel, AT&T, or ExxonMobil can't be trusted to govern responsibly. They answer to us.

A great many people who cross the border do so because at this point the cartels have more control over life in Mexico than the government does. These people need help, not caging.

We are a sovereign country, not a humanitarian outreach. Mexico and Mexicans should get pissed off about it, start locking and loading, and handle their own problems. When the Crips set fire to the liquor store in Watts, we don't wonder why Canada doesn't come to the rescue. Mexicans need to be big boys and girls and handle their shit. Because if we're gonna be expected to handle their widespread problems, then I feel like we should go ahead and annex Mexico so we can use their tax revenue to pay for the efforts.
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