Author Topic: Current Politics & History Only Thread  (Read 122759 times)

Offline R. Hayabusa

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Current Politics & History Only Thread
« on: May 03, 2013, 08:32:33 PM »
Since my post got deleted, i thought i'd make my own thread. comment as you see fit. however, if anyone throws in personal insults and offtopic nonsense it gets deleted. some considered in the troll crowd, will be auto deleted.

(only replying to politics forum posts, regardless).

would it be correct to say that abraham lincoln was a scumbag, that steamrolled over many of the bill of rights? wasn't it he that conscripted soldiers to fight and die in a war against it's own countrymen, to inadvertently free slaves? a strange dichotomy when you actually  think about it

The real reason of the war wasn't slavery. (even though nobody should be a slave) it was a about succession. at least that is what i gathered from the documentary that i had cited in another thread recently.

even after all that, we still have slavery in the world, sex slave rings. human trafficking, and the mentally enslaved thinking we are living in a completely free country. It was a long run, but the more things change, The more they stay the same.


It can't happen here.

"Power Concedes nothing without a demand. it never did and never will. Find out just what people will submit to, and you have found the exact amount of injustice & wrong which will be imposed upon them." Frederick Douglass


http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=A_pfgt6R7S8#!
« Last Edit: May 03, 2013, 11:18:27 PM by Golgo13 »
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Offline 2d

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Re: Current Politics & History Only Thread
« Reply #1 on: May 03, 2013, 09:38:34 PM »
Well i am no historian, and my history knowledge can be considered average, but none of that matters in the internet age,  :bomb:  knowing where to look and knowing how to research remedies this dilemma  :beer:
 
 :arrow: http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2011/04/110411-civil-war-150th-anniversary-fort-sumter-battle/

 :sonic1: :sonic1: :sonic1:
You got me curious golgo, and that article is perfect, as its not too long and filled with great writing and information. Indeed you are correct when you say the civil war was caused by s3ceding states. :ti-ki:

Lincoln seems to me to be a tactician of the highest order, refusing to do anything unless it appeared to the public to be a response and not an aggravation. :ti-ki:

The movie that came out a couple months ago, 'Lincoln' starring Daniel Day Lewis was actually pretty good. I enjoyed the portrayal and came away with a very positive opinion of Lincoln and of the seat of the Presidency.

<span data-s9e-mediaembed="youtube" style="display:inline-block;width:100%;max-width:640px"><span style="display:block;overflow:hidden;position:relative;padding-bottom:56.25%"><iframe allowfullscreen="" scrolling="no" style="background:url(https://i.ytimg.com/vi/qiSAbAuLhqs/hqdefault.jpg) 50% 50% / cover;border:0;height:100%;left:0;position:absolute;width:100%" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/qiSAbAuLhqs"></iframe></span></span><br /><a href="https://www.youtube.com/v/qiSAbAuLhqs&amp;hl=en" target="_blank" class="new_win">https://www.youtube.com/v/qiSAbAuLhqs&amp;hl=en</a>
There was one scene that was very eye opening though  :ubershock:
In the movie, he wrote a letter that was an outright lie to congress about the status of knowing whether confederate representatives were headed to Washington to discuss the end of the war in order to try and push through his legislation to end slavery. :ti-ki:

Some historians argue, and indeed the movie presents that his motivation for freeing the slaves had to do with how America was perceived around the world, and that ending slavery was a moral obligation worth sacrificing more lives and postponing an immediate end to the war. :ti-ki:

Lincolns motivations to me have always been unclear / suspicious  :shifteyes:  Some historians think Lincoln really was indifferent about the Slavery issue, and actually used derogatory words when describing or associating with blacks. :ti-ki:

My belief and argument is that Lincoln not only wanted to end the war, but he wanted to severely cripple the confederacy to the extent that recovery/re-assembly of the southern economy and military would require decades and dependence on the union, thus subjecting them to change and forever altering their habits and way of life  :smiley_abtf: Lincoln needed to end slavery to accomplish this, as slavery was the driving force of the southern economy; i believe the overwhelmingly accepted narrative of why slavery was ended (moral obligation),  was secondary to his goal of permanent victory and fully preventing a second war. :ti-ki:

When viewing the movie under the presumptions I have described, falsifying information to congress and bribing senators to vote to end slavery falls in line with interests of national security and probably within Lincoln's unprecedented amount of power he assumed under the presidency. :ti-ki:

Whether he cared about slavery or the moral obligation will never be known, as its impossible to see inside a persons heart and mind, but I would think its safe to say it was a combination of the two.  :ti-ki:

:bouss01: :bouss01: :bouss01:
« Last Edit: May 04, 2013, 01:02:35 AM by 2d »
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Offline animosity

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Re: Current Politics & History Only Thread
« Reply #2 on: May 03, 2013, 10:01:57 PM »
Abraham Lincoln Quote

“I will say then that I am not, nor ever have been in favor of bringing about in anyway the social and political equality of the white and black races – that I am not nor ever have been in favor of making voters or jurors of negroes, nor of qualifying them to hold office, nor to intermarry with white people; and I will say in addition to this that there is a physical difference between the white and black races which I believe will forever forbid the two races living together on terms of social and political equality. And inasmuch as they cannot so live, while they do remain together there must be the position of superior and inferior, and I as much as any other man am in favor of having the superior position assigned to the white race. I say upon this occasion I do not perceive that because the white man is to have the superior position the negro should be denied everything.”
 
by:
 
Abraham Lincoln
 (1809-1865) 16th US President
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Offline R. Hayabusa

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Re: Current Politics & History Only Thread
« Reply #3 on: May 03, 2013, 11:14:09 PM »
interesting replies.

Offline |iR|Focalor

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Re: Current Politics & History Only Thread
« Reply #4 on: May 03, 2013, 11:55:34 PM »
The real reason of the war wasn't slavery. (even though nobody should be a slave) it was a about succession.

Indeed you are correct when you say the civil war was caused by succeeding states. :ti-ki:

 :sarcastic: Indeed both of you are incorrect. If the war were about "succession", you would be claiming that it was a dispute over who would be the next ruler. If the war were caused by "succeeding states", you would be making the nonsensical claim that the war was caused by states being profitable and growing.

I believe the word you are looking for is "SECESSION", as in "to secede", a word which is quite similar to "recede", which also happens to be a synonym of the words "withdraw" and "vacate", words which describe exactly what a secession IS.
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Offline animosity

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Re: Current Politics & History Only Thread
« Reply #5 on: May 04, 2013, 12:24:57 AM »
Lincoln didnt free the slaves because he wanted blacks to have equality, he freed the slaves to cripple the south by getting rid of its slave labor.
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Offline 2d

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Re: Current Politics & History Only Thread
« Reply #6 on: May 04, 2013, 12:45:04 AM »
good catch manly man, i spelled it wrong but meant the same. what are your opinions on lincoln
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Offline |iR|Focalor

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Re: Current Politics & History Only Thread
« Reply #7 on: May 04, 2013, 01:32:55 AM »
good catch manly man, i spelled it wrong but meant the same. what are your opinions on lincoln

I did not see the movie. As a person, I'm sure President Lincoln had many admirable qualities, but like all men, he had his flaws too. I certainly reject the notion preached and indoctrinated into school children that he was a spotless saint. Looking at it purely from a stance in the time in which he lived, and also obviously as a resident of the South, I would probably call him an over-ambitious tyrant who cared more about his thirst for consolidating power by preserving the Union than his reported love and longing for life and peace. Maybe if he would've simply allowed the South to form our own sovereign Confederacy and respected that decision, hundreds of thousands of lives would've been spared from the jaws of war.

BUT...

In retrospect, preservation of the Union has proven to be quite a profitable thing for the entire nation. Had the nation remained divided, neither side would likely be a military superpower and global economic powerhouse on the scale of what we now ALL enjoy. So many "what if's". What if the South had prevented the interruption of vital supply lines and gone on to defeat the North and win their independence? Perhaps some 80 years later when World War 2 broke out, things would've gone much differently allowing either Japan or Germany to not suffer defeat. Perhaps Korea would still be one nation entirely under Northern Communist control. Those two outcomes of conflicts alone pose countless more "what if" questions. I'm not a man who believes in fate, destiny, or divine intervention. And I also do not believe that we are God's chosen saviors of the globe, as we have many faults and flaws. Nevertheless, had this nation been divided and unable to respond to those two situations the way we did, then perhaps those wars would've had entirely different outcomes and neither Union or Confederate states would've survived. In my opinion, if fate exists, it was only cruel then to be kind to us later.
« Last Edit: May 04, 2013, 01:36:31 AM by |iR|Focalor »
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Offline 2d

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Re: Current Politics & History Only Thread
« Reply #8 on: May 04, 2013, 04:49:19 AM »
Maybe if he would've simply allowed the South to form our own sovereign Confederacy and respected that decision, hundreds of thousands of lives would've been spared from the jaws of war.

Lincoln wanted the war. That son of a bitch welcomed it probably. Change usually takes years and decades under normal circumstances, but Lincoln saw his moment in history, similar to  George W. Bush and his invasion of Iraq and the middle east and his insistence that history would ultimately judge him and his actions in the pursuit of the expansion of freedom around the globe.
I would liken both of these wars as instances of Presidents pursuing shortcuts through time to conflicts that seemed destined, especially considering nations around the world had already begun outlawing slavery. The war was Lincoln's gift to America to bring about change that was rapid and lasting, especially foreseeing the Union having the advantage with resources and manufacturing. The absence of international hostility towards the United States was also beneficial towards Lincolns pursuits as the war of 1812 with England had ended as well as the mexican war with the alamo in the 1840's.


Those in power throughout the human timeline have consistently made the judgement that human life really isn't as sacred or as holy as a political agenda or profit. Take for example Hiroshima and Nagasaki, or the Holocaust, or our modern day tragedy in Syria with over 100k people dying because Russia wants to profit off of the Assad Regime's downfall.   

:rocketright: :rocketleft:

Humans today are so diverse and our gene pools are so greatly mixed and intertwined, that the moral threshold to withstand killing thousands or millions of people really has grown, correlating to our population increase. The ability to repopulate ourselves so quickly and implant an ego more aligned with a nations political, religious, or economic interests, has always been more favorable, faster and cheaper than indoctrinating and occupying an existing hostile group of persons. This has always been and will always be our human legacy.

The weak die, and the strong repopulate  :raincloud:


Haunted youre owned  :evilking:
« Last Edit: May 04, 2013, 04:58:53 AM by 2d »
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Offline |iR|Focalor

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Re: Current Politics & History Only Thread
« Reply #9 on: May 04, 2013, 10:21:59 AM »
Lincoln wanted the war. That son of a bitch welcomed it probably. Change usually takes years and decades under normal circumstances, but Lincoln saw his moment in history, similar to  George W. Bush and his invasion of Iraq and the middle east and his insistence that history would ultimately judge him and his actions in the pursuit of the expansion of freedom around the globe.

No sane ruler WANTS war. The insane may want it in order to exterminate large groups of people, but for the sane leader, it is always a last resort because it is such an expensive undertaking. President Lincoln might've been many things, but insane is not one of them. I highlighted your use of the word "probably" to prove the point that your statement is not entirely based on fact, but merely your opinion. I don't think war in and of itself is what anyone could claim Lincoln wanted with any reasonable proof. Nothing he ever said or did seemed to indicate that he pursued war as the primary plan of action. POWER, on the other hand, is something one could say he sought, and war was the only means by which he could've achieved it. It wasn't exactly a "conquest". The southern states had already been part of the Union, and he merely wanted to preserve the Union in order to retain it's full power, size, and place in the world. I still don't think it was entirely for selfish reasons that he sought to preserve the power of the full union. But any idiot ruling an area knows the possibility for wealth and prosperity is always greater the larger your kingdom is. The outcome of the war in the longterm just so happened to have been a mutually beneficial thing to both the North and the South as well as for the President himself. War over the issue of slavery was more than likely a completely unavoidable conflict, and President Lincoln was, depending on how you look at it, either lucky or unlucky enough to be the man at the head of the table when the issue came up.

Let's also not forget that he was not an all-powerful dictator. Congress had to approve things before going to war, and one man alone was not responsible for tipping the scales in favor of war. Often one man will hold plenty of weight to control the allegiances of others who would follow their lead, but there are still plenty of others who have the opportunity to oppose them, especially in a democratic republic.
« Last Edit: May 04, 2013, 10:28:17 AM by |iR|Focalor »
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Offline R. Hayabusa

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Re: Current Politics & History Only Thread
« Reply #10 on: May 04, 2013, 02:31:33 PM »
I believe the word you are looking for is "SECESSION", as in "to secede",

Yes.

Offline 2d

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Re: Current Politics & History Only Thread
« Reply #11 on: May 04, 2013, 02:36:29 PM »
 :sonic1: :sonic1: :sonic1:
No sane ruler WANTS war. The insane may want it in order to exterminate large groups of people, but for the sane leader, it is always a last resort because it is such an expensive undertaking. President Lincoln might've been many things, but insane is not one of them.

Whether war is insane or sane is a gray area. As far as war always being out of a last resort, im not so sure. War is for the most part, good for stimulating an economy. WW2 seemed to be a great idea for getting the united states out of the depression, though i'll agree hitler was the priority. The last time I looked though, no one really held a gun to our heads when we invaded Vietnam to halt the spread of communism. GWBush sent collin powel to lie to the united nations to push us into iraq, which many people now consider was started under false pretenses and with the unfortunate abuse of what happened on 9/11. Don't get me wrong, the fact that weapons of mass destruction were never found does not take away from the fact that removing saddam and initiating a chain reaction of falling middle east leaders was correct and in line with the interests of the national security of the united states of america, in my opinion. I do not think GWBush is insane, but I truly believe he tried to advance freedom in the middle east. Others think he did it out of revenge or for profiteering, but I would consider those motives secondary, just like Lincolns moral obligation claim with slavery. I consider myself an independent, but align myself mostly with democrats and I agree :thumbsupup: with what Bush did, even though shady techniques were used. The human cost of war is immeasurable,  but i can tell you that it can be very profitable in terms of avoiding future conflict or spreading a political agenda outside of a pure cost analysis.  :purpleshock:

War over the issue of slavery was more than likely a completely unavoidable conflict, and President Lincoln was, depending on how you look at it, either lucky or unlucky enough to be the man at the head of the table when the issue came up.

if it was unavoidable, the issue of sanity is irrelevant. being a tactician, i can see lincoln welcoming the war  :smiley_aavn:

Let's also not forget that he was not an all-powerful dictator.

from what i understand, lincoln suspended many of our rights and was probably the closest thing to a dictator this nation has ever had. the movie shows him bribing senators and lieing to congress effortlessly.

You are right though, this is all just my opinion, and was shared for the fun of it.  :ubbbounce2:
:bouss01: :bouss01: :bouss01:

die haunted  :smiley_aayz:
« Last Edit: May 04, 2013, 04:09:42 PM by 2d »
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Offline R. Hayabusa

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Re: Current Politics & History Only Thread
« Reply #12 on: May 04, 2013, 02:45:45 PM »
Let's also not forget that he was not an all-powerful dictator. Congress had to approve things before going to war, and one man alone was not responsible for tipping the scales in favor of war. Often one man will hold plenty of weight to control the allegiances of others who would follow their lead, but there are still plenty of others who have the opportunity to oppose them, especially in a democratic republic.

"Good intentions will always be pleaded, for every assumption of authority.The Constitution was made to guard the people
against the dangers of good intentions."  -Noah Webster
« Last Edit: May 04, 2013, 02:54:22 PM by Golgo13 »

Offline R. Hayabusa

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Re: Current Politics & History Only Thread
« Reply #13 on: May 04, 2013, 02:48:24 PM »
from what i understand, lincoln suspended many of our rights and was probably the closest thing to a dictator this nation has ever had. the movie shows him bribing senators and lieing to congress effortlessly.

yea, imagine what's it's like today.

Offline |iR|Focalor

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Re: Current Politics & History Only Thread
« Reply #14 on: May 04, 2013, 04:34:40 PM »
War is for the most part, good for stimulating an economy. WW2 seemed to be a great idea for getting the united states out of the depression, though i'll agree hitler was the priority.

At some point in time, masses of people were obviously taught that the war alone was the sole thing that pulled the US out of the Great Depression. Being an economics major, I'm sure you'd be willing to teach me in depth exactly HOW spending billions and billions of dollars feeding, training, payrolling, and outfitting huge numbers of soldiers somehow directly results in a profit.
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0rbisson

October 12, 2019, 04:21:10 AM
Miss this game. Will come back for 1 last run some day

dataspel

October 10, 2019, 04:03:16 PM
back up thanks sir!
 

Admin

October 10, 2019, 03:53:32 PM
Strange, seems UDP packets are being blocked somewhere in the datacenter.

Oh, of course as I type this it starts working again. (Was about to submit a trouble ticket. Let's see if it holds up.)

dataspel

October 10, 2019, 03:51:10 PM
Servers down?
 

|iR|Focalor

October 10, 2019, 03:37:00 PM
Multiple people were experiencing it earlier. (fatknitty, etc) Several people timed out and DC'd in spurts. It's apparently doing it again.
 

|iR|Focalor

October 10, 2019, 03:32:24 PM
Definitely not.
 

Admin

October 10, 2019, 02:32:01 PM
Servers seem OK here?
 

|iR|Focalor

October 10, 2019, 02:07:52 PM
Yer servers are broke.

rikwad

October 06, 2019, 07:44:06 AM
Neat textures Unholy..thanks for the work! I have Elysium's deathmatch skins here if anyone wants:


https://drive.google.com/file/d/1soI5iUSdbjULSevQTTWcbtSxhjh8R6__/view?usp=sharing

The ones you put up are his team skins, I think. Thanks again!



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